Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:08 Welcome to the rogue startups podcast. We're to startup founders are sharing lessons learned and pitfalls to avoid in their online businesses. And now here's Dave and Craig. All right. Welcome back to another episode of rogue startups. Dave, how are you doing this week?
Speaker 1 00:00:25 I'm doing fantastic. Starting 20, 21 off with a bang. Uh, nobody has a attempted a coup against my business this week. So I feel like I'm already, uh, in the black
Speaker 2 00:00:35 You're one step up on some other parts of the country, huh? Yeah, man. Very sad. Very sad. Last week, dark times, indeed. Uh, yeah, politics aside. We, uh, we did get some feedback for our, from our post election episode. So I think we'll try to steer clear of politics, uh, as much as we want to, uh, here going forward, but even David had one update that I wanted to share a, I tweeted about this the other day and I don't tweet that often, but I've been trying to be more intentional about my time and how I allocate my time and prioritize things in my business. And I started using a to-do list app it's called things. Um, so a lot of folks use OmniFocus and it's a kind of an Omni focused type thing. But, uh, I have to say like, I'm only a few days into it and I'm feeling that like lifting of the cognitive load of always worrying about shit and always worrying about my email inbox and my calendar and stuff, because like I just put everything into the to-do list and I kind of organize it and I put a bunch of stuff to do each day and I knock them off.
Speaker 2 00:01:39 And, uh, it's been a really refreshing way to kind of organize, you know, it's like personal life and professional stuff all in one place. So, um, I mean, for folks who kind of poopoo this and always thought it was like productivity hacks were for people that don't actually do a real work. Uh, I was one of those people like maybe check it out because it's been a nice way to kind of change up how I approach each day and actually like get some shit done. So it's been a good thing so far.
Speaker 1 00:02:09 Nice, nice. I may have to do that. You know, my, uh, if you saw my current desk state right now, you'd be, most people would be horrified. My wife is constantly horrified every time she walks into my office and you know, for me it somehow works, but I wouldn't say that the system is like totally full-proof and without its own issues, you know, I've got sticky notes all over my desk and all over my monitor and there's a bunch of piles of paper on here. And generally speaking it, it holds things together, but occasionally it breaks down when it breaks down, it doesn't break down nicely. It breaks down badly. So yeah, maybe it's time for me to revisit that.
Speaker 2 00:02:46 Uh, how about you? There were things,
Speaker 1 00:02:48 Things are good. I am going back and forth on some content marketing stuff here, trying to hone the, the final sequence of things here. I'm, uh, I'm definitely having some communication issues right now. And I feel like I've got some breakthrough coming this week and if I don't have a breakthrough this week, then I think there's going to need to be a radical change. There might need to be a coup in my content marketing.
Speaker 2 00:03:17 Have you guys gotten stuff out the door or is it still kind of in process?
Speaker 1 00:03:20 It's still in flight and you know, that to me has been a little long now to be fair. I, you know, I had this stuff on Friday and my desk and I took the weekend off. I was doing some other stuff, so I didn't really get to it to yesterday, but it still wasn't there. And, you know, I feel like it should be there and I'm paying a premium amount. So getting it, there seems like it shouldn't be that hard. I'm concerned that part of it is communication on my part and not clearly communicating the expectations of what I'm looking for. And I thought the last round of this, I had improved that it didn't seem to totally get there. I'll give it one more round. And if it's not, I think I'm going to have to cut loose
Speaker 2 00:04:02 Pivot. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that my, my experience is that the, the first time working with someone on something is always much longer and more difficult than, than all the subsequent times. But if you're not getting like updates and expectations and communication on that, even if it's longer know the normal than that, that's like the really bad sign for me. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:04:23 I'm trying to, you know, I tend to be very impatient with things in general and I know that about myself. So I try to extend like when I'm, when I know that I'm feeling that way with somebody about their work, regardless of whether it's for development or in the business, or even with my kids or whatever, I try to extend that patience a little bit longer, knowing that I'm in exactly that spot right then and there and say, all right, this is not, this is not appropriate to do this. Now you need to continue to be patient for a little bit longer and, you know, figure it out. And most of the time that works. So I'm, I'm in that spot right now. Like,
Speaker 2 00:05:03 Yep. I had a couple of things I was thinking about that maybe we could talk about, I don't know, like how much you kind of, I guess it kind of has to do with what we were just talking about with like podcasting, but like, like the value of like your personal brand to your business. Like, I think we've talked around this recently, but, or in the past, but not recently. And I don't know if that's interesting to you or if you have kind of strong feelings about it or have like your brands brand, you know?
Speaker 1 00:05:30 Yeah. I don't have strong feelings about brands and branding, you know, there's a lot of stuff in DTC, but I'm not, I'm not really part of that. And I don't really get a lot of exposure to that, so.
Speaker 2 00:05:43 Okay. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. And
Speaker 1 00:05:46 No, I have no brands, so, you know, nobody likes my brand. Nobody buys the Dave road and buy anything. So
Speaker 2 00:05:53 Yeah. And I that's, that's, that's how I feel too is like, don't want my company to be my brand, you know? Um, but like, I think we're more thinking about like cast us as a brand lately, um, because we're a little more like not direct to consumer like B to C than you are, I think. Yeah. I heard an interesting conversation about goals and I know we've talked about goals in the past, but like, are you setting like with, with EOS, are you setting more like definitive, like annual goals here at the beginning of the year?
Speaker 1 00:06:27 None at the beginning of the year, I already set them, uh, in the middle of the year. Well, not the middle of the year, but in October when I did my, you know, personal retreat, I set all of that stuff. So I'm going to pull that out when I do my rocks, I still haven't had chance to do my rocks yet. I need to do that. Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I have an idea of what my rocks are, so I just haven't written them down. So I'm staring at them every day, but yeah, I mean, I've already done the longer term things, you know, the 10, the three and the one year. So it's really just saying, all right, well, what did I do last quarter of my rocks? What do I need to do next quarter of my rocks to achieve the one-year goal? That's it? You know, so for me right now, it's not like, woo, big deal. You know,
Speaker 2 00:07:10 Did you find it easier? Do you find it easier to think forward from today to, you know, three months from now and then a year from now and then three and 10 years from now? Or like, do you look at your 10 year goal and start working backwards and figure out the things you have to do to, to make those intermediate milestones happen?
Speaker 1 00:07:28 Well, I did it according to the EOS, you know, stated way, which was do the 10, then three and then the one, and then you set the quarterly rocks and I see the value in going that direction. You know, I can see why people would want to look at it one way versus the other and why maybe their mode of thinking makes it easier to think that way. But I, I actually gravitate towards the EOS one because the 10 year goal gives you like the long-term vision. What do you see your business being in 10 years? Where do you want to be in 10 years? And then backing that up to a three-year intermediate goal to say, all right, if you're going to reach this thing in 10 years, where do you have to be in three years to be on track for that and look at that phase and then write that down and then bring that down to one year.
Speaker 1 00:08:26 Like if you want to be on track for the three-year goal, where do you have to be in one year? So what this is really doing, it's like, it's like plotting out cities on a map, you're on a journey and you're trying to get to, you know, going from New York to California, you're you need to know what's my route from New York to California. You can't just be like, ah, I'm gonna drive. There's a hundred different ways to drive to get there. You know, you can drive all the way South to Florida and then come across Texas and blah, you know, you could come straight through the Midwest, you could go across Canada and come down, you have to know which is the right way, because there's definitely costs and challenges and opportunities that are made or lost in any of those routes. So I actually liked the ten-year three-year one year. So, but like,
Speaker 2 00:09:13 And you like, so you have your, you have your tenure, like tenure and three-year and one year, but then like the, the place that it falls down for me is saying like, okay, even like at the one year level you have like outcome metrics, like revenue, right. Or team size or whatever. And maybe at the one year you have like launched this feature thing. But like, where I have a hard time is in some of those longer term horizons, you just have like numbers, you know, like revenue numbers, or team size or something like that. And I have a hard time then like translating that into the nearer term things to help get there because like, and I guess part of it is like so much of it is uncertain. You know, it's like, I have a three-year goal of, you know, whatever, say a number, you know, $10 million in revenue, the gap between here and there is so huge that like the tactical or practical things that I do this quarter to put us on track to get there are, could be so off, you know?
Speaker 2 00:10:15 And like, that's where I just have a hard time with it. I'm not against setting goals. Cause I, I really like it, but like I have these goals, even a one-year goal. And then to say like, okay, this quarter, these are the things that I need to do and that we need to ship, or we need to hire to get there is just a, like, it's a big stretch, you know, because I think you're going from like a number goal to a, an action metric and like that, I don't know. It's just, it's not clear. And I guess that's part of being an entrepreneur, but that's, that's where I struggle.
Speaker 1 00:10:46 Remember the whole thing with EOS and you know, the, the get a grip follow on, I thought was the, was the better version of this because it's it showed this in practice. Remember these are not like written in stone. You're not chiseling this, this isn't the 10 commandments you're taken to the top of the mountain each year. You go over the 10 year, the three year in the one year and you reset those, you look at those and say, does this still make sense? Where are we being overly ambitious? Were we being too under ambitious? Because you just don't know until you've had time to work through those goals. And you know, you may go through the first round of this the first year and be like, we're going to be $10 million in revenue. And then after the first year, you're like, okay, well w in order to get to 10 million in 10 years, we needed to be at 1 million this year.
Speaker 1 00:11:36 And we only made 300,000. So obviously that goal was wrong. So now you have to go back and you have to reset the 10 year. And that means you have to reset the three year. And then you reset the one year based on those other goals. So it's not like, okay, you, you, you throw this down and that's it. You never look at it again. You just come back and say, did we make this note? We didn't make it. We suck. All right, let's keep going. Do we make it? Nope. We still suck. All right. That's not the way it is. That's it.
Speaker 2 00:12:02 And as you're like, as you're like laying out your rocks, how do you think about, and it doesn't have to be specific, but like mindset, like, okay, this is my one-year goal. How do you think about these are the things I have to do to get to that one-year goal. Even if you know, it's probably wrong, but like, what's your mindset towards crafting those like quarterly milestones?
Speaker 1 00:12:24 Well, you know, I can't speak for everybody. I can only speak for what I've had in my experience here, but for me it was all right. I want to reach a certain revenue target. So now in order for me to reach that revenue target, I need to start hitting growth goals after the first quarter, like I'm going to give myself a quarter to ramp up and get ready for this. And then after that, I need to start hitting growth goals every quarter, following that. So based on those growth goals, I said to myself, what is it that I need to do to hit that growth goal? What are the things that are standing in my way of growing that right now? And those became my rocks. So for me, it was very concrete steps, like, alright, I saw content marketing was something. I had a huge hole in content.
Speaker 1 00:13:10 Marketing has worked really well for other companies. Content marketing is something that we could execute on that we have a budget to do. We want to do these certain things, and then we're going to do this specific ad campaign to make a big splash in Q1 based on this feature that we've already built from last year. So there was a, you know, I had a line of things that were sort of there that were just floating around and this helped me line them all up. So like my Q2 rocks, basically the Q1 rocks were all about or sorry, Q4 rocks. Cause that's what we just ended. The Q4 rocks were all about preparing for that content marketing, push Q1. Those rocks are going to be launching the first campaign, getting a certain amount of content in place and then starting to measure the results of those.
Speaker 1 00:13:59 And then my Q2 rocks will be, you know, we have to make adjustments based on what we saw in Q1. Is this working, is this not working? What do we need to do more of? What do we need to shore up? What, you know, where are weaknesses in here? That, that sort of thing. I have no idea what my Q3 rocks are gonna be at this point. Cause it's going to be dependent entirely on Q1 and Q2. So I'm only looking at it in a three month, maybe six month window at a time, but you know, the longer the window goes out, the fuzzier it gets.
Speaker 2 00:14:30 Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where, that's where I struggle is that, that like time disconnect a little bit, you know, of like, I know the things we're doing this quarter are important, but I don't know if they're actually the things that are going to get us where we want to go, you know? And like, I think it's impossible to know that until you're in the future, but I like the idea of what said of like, this is a barrier and us to us getting there. And so like knocking down that barrier obviously kind of paves the path to, to, to achieving those longer term goals. I haven't really thought of like major obstacles we have. I just haven't thought of it in that way. So I'm gonna have to chew on that a little bit.
Speaker 1 00:15:10 Well, there might be a different way to look at this too. And that was, um, you could do this from the Eisenhower analysis, right? You, you remember that four quadrant thing there where you have importance and urgency, right? So
Speaker 2 00:15:25 Everything's both,
Speaker 1 00:15:27 That's a, no, I can't be that. I mean, he tells me that is bullshitting because you just haven't looked deep enough. Seriously. I work for my freelance client does this. And they're like, everything's urgent. Everything's important. I'm like, yeah, but it's not, because two weeks later they've now completely forgotten about one of those things. They dropped into the urgent and important quadrant. So it wasn't that urgent. And it wasn't that important because now it's just sitting on the list and nobody seems to give a shit about it. So the problem is that nobody understands how to actually put it in that graph. You know, the tendency is to want to shove it up into the upper right corner, but that's not right. You have to genuinely look and say in the bigger scope of things, what kind of, you know, for importance. I like to think of that as impact.
Speaker 1 00:16:14 Not just how, because the word important is just too nebulous to me. I want to have something that is measurable. You know, if we're going for smart goals here, measurable as the second thing in there, right. It's gotta be specific, it's gotta be measurable. So I want to see what is it that this is going to do to my business. And how big is that? Is it little? Is it medium? Is it huge? If it's huge and it's like really difficult to execute on, that's not something that I'm going to be able to knock out necessarily in a quarter actually, now that I'm thinking about it, that's not the Eisenhower importance, that's a different scale. So there's the difficulty and the impact. That was a different, I think that's an agile thing. God, I can't, I wish I remembered what this was and it's probably going to hit me like, you know, at lunchtime today,
Speaker 2 00:17:08 Right. Someone will email into us and uh, and educate us. I'm sure.
Speaker 1 00:17:11 Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So we've got the Eisenhower matrix, which has one thing here, and then you've got like the difficulty and the impact. And so what you really want to do are defining the easiest high-impact things you can really work on, which often means that they're shorter term projects and the ones that are the lowest impact and the highest difficulty just toss those fuckers out because they're not going to do anything for your business. You know, keep, maybe put them on a list of JIRAs or, you know, if you're tracking stuff in Trello, whatever your favorite thing is, base camp doesn't matter, keep them in there. So you've got a record that you actually thought of this and decided actively, yeah, this is not going to work. Cause maybe later it will make more sense when something has changed. But I think that difficulty impact and the importance urgency measurement there will help you prioritize. What are the things that are going to make a difference in your business in the next three months? Uh, you know, I, that to me doesn't seem that hard. And if you're thinking that everything belongs in the upper right quadrant, I don't think you're looking deep enough.
Speaker 2 00:18:09 Yeah. I mean, that's my knee-jerk reaction is everything is important. It has to get done today. I've actually come a long way with this, that, especially from a product perspective, I, I feel like I have a lot more patience for, you know, kind of one doing things the right way and you know, doing things like automated tests and all this kind of stuff that, uh, I just, I've kind of given from a time perspective, kind of a large amount of like my expectations over to Jonathan and the development team to say like, I want to build this, just tell me how long it takes. And I don't like push back on that or, or kind of poke and prod them like I used to. And I hope that they're all happier because of that. I'm happier because like, I don't stress about it. I've kind of like, I'm gonna say given in, but like, yeah, kind of said, this is out of my hands. This is kind of what I want. This is a part of the business. I can't control. I'm going to go do marketing and sales stuff that I can control and the product stuff will get there. You know, when, when it, when it gets there. Um, so I'm, I'm more at peace with that side of things lately, which is a nice change.
Speaker 1 00:19:15 Yeah. That's really nice. Uh, you know, I I've noticed this a lot lately in my own stuff. Like, you know, I used to have this, I had this approach with recapture for a very long time where if customer a came in and said, yeah, you know, we really need, we need you to support multicurrency and Shopify. And like, here's a perfect, an exact example I've had in the last two weeks, somebody came in and said, yeah, do you support multicurrency and Shopify? And then I said, well, yeah, we do. But after looking at it, I realized it probably wasn't exactly what they wanted. And it turned out that there's some like technical things about how Shopify is handing us the data, because mult, what this means is not to bog this discussion down, but multi-currency support basically means that there's a base currency on the store and the customer could come in and say, all right, the base currency here is euros, but I'm from the UK.
Speaker 1 00:20:07 So I want to shop in pounds and that's fine. Or I'm from the U S and I want to shop in dollars. So there's the customers' currency, there's the base currency, the store, and what they want to see in the abandoned cart emails is the customer's currency, because that's what they're going to think in. So if I'm buying something from the store, I don't want to see my cart total in euros of the store. I want to see it in dollars. So, you know, one person was asking me about this. And so, you know, I immediately went to Mike and I'm like, Hey, what's going on with this? Can we, can we support this? And you know, Mike went and did the deep dive on this, looked at all the various web hooks and found that Shopify sends us like 65% of the data. Um, you know, there's like, there's three different web hooks.
Speaker 1 00:20:53 And two of them are exactly what you need. And the third one, which happens to be the major one, doesn't send this data at all. And you're like, what the fuck? Why are you inconsistent on this currency? Conversion on the fly and all this shit. Well, it's worse than that because you never know what order those web hooks are going to show up in. So we could get it the first time and not know what the customer's currency is at all Paul. So it's uglier than that. Right. And you know, I had to go back and just tell the customer. I'm like, well, this is what, where we're at right now. And they ended up not signing up, which was fine, but you know, I had Mike go through all of this. And then I was like, at the end of it, he's like, well, what's the priority to work on this.
Speaker 1 00:21:31 And I'm like, yeah, this isn't a priority right now because the person didn't sign up. And I realized that I'm not hearing this repeatedly from lots and lots of people saying, you know, do you support multicurrency, can you show me the customers' currency in the emails, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What I am hearing a lot of is, you know, do you have broadcast emails? Do you support broadcast emails? Can you send emails like MailChimp? Can you do email general email campaigns? What if I want to do this kind of a campaign, that's basically a broadcast email that I'm hearing a lot of. So, you know, it's very clear to me, which of those two, I should be spending development resources on right now, just based on the frequency of that request. And so, you know, I'm getting other, you know, we had another one where somebody came in, they had a Magento store and we don't support products or previous per, uh, what, what's the term I'm looking for?
Speaker 1 00:22:24 The abandoned carts. Oh, the one thing I do all the time. Yeah. The abandoned carts. We don't support those imports like we do on Shopify. So if you go to Shopify, what we'll do is we'll pull in like the last month's worth of abandoned carts on your store, because Shopify has that data for us. We can go grab it. So that means that immediately we can reprocess those carts that you've had on your site. It's a great feature. It was one of the smartest things we ever added, but not every button platform supports it in the same way. And Magento is a little weird and you know, we're Magento is dying and I had one Magento customer come and ask me, can you support the some Magento? And, you know, I said, well, we don't have that now. And if I can't get it to you in a week, it's not going to matter because all your carts are going to start to die off and it's going to be too late to send anything to them anyway.
Speaker 1 00:23:16 And you know, great, there'll be stale and you're just going to piss him off. So don't do it. But, you know, I talked with Mike about this and he's like, well, what did, what's the priority of Magento carts? And I'm like, yeah, it's not that high. It's very low. It's very low because it doesn't have a big impact on my customer base. So I can't, I can't throw that thing to the top. So I had to look at a bunch of things, you know, that are going to make a bigger impact on, on things. And so, you know, there's a couple of things I can't talk about them entirely yet because they're still in flight in process, but you know, there isn't a new partnership in the works and there was a feature that we could do that would be very important to this partnership. And I think this partnership has a bigger impact on the business. So I have to disproportionately pay attention to those features and ignore the other features. So, you know, prioritizing that stuff has gotten a little easier over time. I think because once you know what your customers want, you can say, yeah, that's, that makes a big deal. You know, that that's a big deal. That makes a big difference. I'm having some serious speech problems today. I don't know why I've had two cups.
Speaker 2 00:24:24 Yeah, I, uh, so, so this is, this is something that we definitely, uh, it's like a continuous evolution for us is like, so we use feature upvote, uh, Steve McCloud's tool to kind of give a public facing place where folks can go and kind of give product suggestions or feedback, and then other people can up vote them from there. That's been really helpful as like a place we can direct customers to, or plug in users to we go and add some things there so that other people can get visibility on kind of what we're thinking about Kim that has recently joined our team has kind of like owning that now. So that's cool that, that it's off my plate, but it's like a data point, you know, and like a data point is support, you know, and like tickets that people are seeing there and bugs that have been created, uh, and like how, how loud those individual users are or how many of them are seeing it.
Speaker 2 00:25:10 And then like, what's the kind of business impact of that is like, you know, is it just like a font thing that's weird? Or is it like people can't sign up? So like, w like, what I'm getting at is like, we were aggregating this in a lot of different plate from a lot of different places and from a lot of different people on our team, uh, and, and like customers all coming from different places that have different, like priorities and perspectives. And I've, I don't know for better or worse, I've gone from like a, uh, like a group. Um, let's decide this together, a consensus kind of format to I'm the only one that makes these decisions now, like we're getting ready to start a new development cycle, and I'm the only one deciding what we're going to work on. And honestly, like, I feel better about that because like, I am taking all these data points from a bunch of places, but then I'm the only filter that gets to, you know, prioritize, you know, it's important or it's urgent or whatever.
Speaker 2 00:26:05 So I don't know, we'll see how it goes. But like, I think, I think there is like a, a point where like, get all the input from the team and from all the different places, and then like, being really clear about deciding that. And that's where we are at least right now with this, but it's a tough thing because like, again, like it's kind of another, there's like not a right answer. You know, there's not a right answer of like how you do this. No, like people are gonna be pissed no matter what I think. Cause you can't, we just don't have enough resources to make everyone happy. You know? So like prioritizing and giving, I don't know, kind of like reasons and metrics around why you're making that decision for yourself. At least I think is important. Yeah. I mean, totally agree
Speaker 1 00:26:44 That, you know, you can't make everyone happy, but at the same time, like, you know, I always go back to the famous scene from the language of Pearl, you know, a camel is a horse designed by committee and that's the most obscure reference I've ever. Well, it is. But if you're in, if you're in the programming community, that's, you probably have heard that if, especially if you're my age, maybe not if you're younger, but yeah, Pearl, for those that are not familiar with the Pearl language, Pearl, the, the main sane for Pearl was there's more than one way to do it. And what this basically meant is that if you were trying to learn to program Pearl, you could see the same thing done, literally in multiple different ways. Every single one of them is syntactically equivalent and exactly doing the same thing. And it's confusing as hell.
Speaker 1 00:27:41 So when you were learning Pearl, if you learn from somebody that was like doing this stuff and all three techniques at the same time, you would have no idea what you were reading. There was just so much obscure shit in Pearl. It was a pain in the ass of a language to learn. Anyway, the point that I'm trying to get at here is that when you have a lot of inputs, I feel like you lose clarity. You know, if everybody's say is the same, you're not going to get a clear direction, a clear vision. And I hate this analogy, but I'm going to throw it out. Anyway, Steve jobs did not design the iPhone or the iPad or the iPod or any of his products by committee. It was, you know, his vision and his vision alone. Now Steve jobs was an asshole. So there is that to be said as well.
Speaker 1 00:28:29 I think there's a happy middle ground here. You don't have to like take everybody's input and you don't have to be an asshole and a dictator, but you should still have that clear, you know, the clear vision and you should drive it. And there shouldn't be, you know, take everybody's input, consider that. And then at the end you can say, I just, this is where we're going to go. And here's why we're going to do that. And, you know, you could say these things have the biggest impact based on what I'm seeing on all of this data, because a lot of the times people just don't have that perspective. They don't have all of that knowledge. If you bring that to a development team. I, this was one of the things that I think I learned the most of as a developer was getting that broader perspective because I know that I would always be like, Oh, we really need the support, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1 00:29:15 Or we need to really focus on this technical debt, or we really need to rearchitect yada yada yada. And the truth was those things were true, but there were other things that were more true that had bigger impact that dealt with customer revenue and broader concerns of the business that I was insulated to. I had no idea. And so for me to say, you know, and then I would be mad when they would be like, yeah, we're not going to be refactoring that Dave I'm like, Oh, that's a terrible decision. You're going to be hating that one in three years. And I don't know that they did hate it in three years because they made a better decision based on the overall business. Now, there were plenty of other dumb decisions that were made as well. But if you can at least turn around and explain that, finally, you know, I had a couple of product managers that actually sat me down and said, all right, well, I heard what you said.
Speaker 1 00:30:04 I don't want you to think that we ignored what you did and contributed there. It's just that we had, you know, X and Y and Z also factored into this. And these things generate millions of dollars for the business. And yours will cost us six months of time trying to develop and push this thing out and QA it. And I'm like, Oh, Oh, well, I didn't really think of it that way. Like, you know, that, you know, concretized in my mind, the whole notion of business has a cost. And you know, when you're the developer, you don't always think about, well, what's the budget for this? How much is this thing making we as product owners now? And as, as entrepreneurs and founders, we have to think like that. So that's a very different mindset if you're coming from somewhere else.
Speaker 2 00:30:46 One thing that I've kind of come to realize along this of these lines too, is like, there are definitely like the, the cognitive load that we carry all the time about the business. I, I think that like our team members carry it too. And to take this load off of them is, is kind of nice, right? Like to say, thanks for your input. This is what we're going to do. Then they don't have to sit in that product meeting and decide what we're going to do. And the next, you know, six weeks or something, they give their input. And I decide, and they say, Oh, that's smart or not, but at least I don't have to make that decision. I'll move on with like the rest of my work life. So I think that, I think that that's good to, to kind of like take that off their plate, be responsible and kind of own that. And then let them kind of worry about other stuff that they have to worry about in their work life. So maybe a hidden, hidden benefit.
Speaker 1 00:31:34 Yep. I agree. I agree. All right. Well, that was a great discussion here this week, Craig, and if you all felt that this was valuable, we'd love. If you would actually share our podcast with one other person, you think could benefit from this. And if you've got a few minutes, we'd love a review on iTunes as well. And I hope 2021 is off to a good start for you until next.
Speaker 0 00:31:59 Thanks for listening to another episode of rogue startups. If you haven't already head over to iTunes and leave a rating and review for the show for show notes from each episode and a few extra resources to help you along your journey, head over to rogue startups.com to learn more.
