Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00 <inaudible>, welcome to the robe startups podcast where two startup founders are sharing lessons learned and pitfalls to avoid in their online businesses. And now here's Dave and Craig.
Speaker 1 00:19 All right, welcome to episode one 88 of rogue startups. Craig, how are you this week?
Speaker 2 00:26 I'm good man. I'm good. Uh, it's been a few weeks since we've chatted and I'm sorry it's been so long, but it's nice to, to catch up and I think, uh, we'll just kinda talk through some, some updates this week, right?
Speaker 1 00:37 I think that sounds great. Why don't you get started? What's going on with a cast dose and uh, and everything else. Uh, so
Speaker 2 00:46 I'm trying to think of like what was going on the last time we talked. Uh, oh no, I know what the big thing is. It's, it's a holy shit big thing I guess on the Blah, say on the personal side, we are back home now after being gone for almost a month. You know, summer vacation in Europe is like a religion, you know, like everyone's gone for the month of August and we finally kind of gave in and did the same thing with the rest of the continent. Um, and it was really cool. We spent most of the month in Italy and it was really awesome. And now we're been home for about three weeks and it's awesome to be home too. But like from a, like a personal work productivity standpoint, I'm finding that like, uh, I dunno, maybe like I'm burning myself out maybe because I have so much more work time than I had for the previous month. Um, I'm finding that I'm just like really edgy and agitated a lot, which is not cool obviously like with your team and stuff. Um, so I'm kind of getting used to working, you know, 40 hour weeks again. Um, so that's whatever. That's kind of like an observation I'm making of myself and kind of how I'm feeling these days. Um,
Speaker 1 01:52 I think if, wait, wait a minute, what was it? You're feeling edgy because you're back to work or you're feeling edgy because you were on vacation and didn't have enough
Speaker 2 01:58 time to work? I'm a little confused. No. So while, I mean it was, it was definitely a workcation. Like I was working, you know, 20 plus hours a week, 2030 hours a week while we were gone. But, but we've as gone, it's traveling some days during the week and just, you know, I wasn't at home and Shitty Wifi and all this kind of stuff. But now that we're back, I think like, I'm expecting more of myself, you know, because I'm back and I should be working full time and I just am, you know, I kind of see sometimes that like, you know, Oh, I wish this was doing better or I wish we were, you know, doing more of this and less of that. And I just, I like, I think I'm just spending more time in the business than I did in August. And so some of the things that are less than perfect are like really evident to me now cause I just see them more often.
Speaker 1 02:48 Ah, okay. All right. That makes more sense. Yeah.
Speaker 2 02:50 Yeah. So, but I think that it kind of makes the case for like where I am now at like I'm on the other side of the valley. I think after, well you know this, this is Thursday evening, some really hard times this week. And like what I've realized is that I have to get myself out of worrying about some of these details in the business because they're always going to be there. Like these things that are less than perfect or our processes that aren't great or something like that. I can't just sit and worry about them all the time. I have to go kind of do my own things that are proactive, let the rest of the business run as good as it can today and work on those things from like a fundamental perspective and not try to make everything perfect all the time by having my hand on it, you know?
Speaker 2 03:35 So that's where I am today is like in a way try to take like a, an emotional step back from like the things that aren't great and just say, okay, that's not great. That's cool. We'll worry about that tomorrow or in and hour or next week. And right now I'm going to go, you know, keep ready for a Webinar or send a bunch of emails or you know, do some SEO stuff or whatever it is and you know, try to make the business as a whole better other than just, I really just been like hyper-focusing on a handful of things and that's just not healthy in any respect. So
Speaker 1 04:06 some might call that micromanaging. Yeah, yeah. No, I totally, yeah,
Speaker 2 04:11 I totally, I fight against it very open. I, I, it's, I think everyone's nature, right? Like you just want <inaudible> that thing in the pressure cooker and see what happens. And it's just not, it's not possible.
Speaker 1 04:23 Yeah. I mean, I have to actively refrain from micro-managing, uh, and it was probably the one thing I think that's held me back as a manager the most is that, you know, I want to put my stamp on it. I want it done my way. And that's not right. You just, you have to give somebody the tools and you have to give them the trust and the space to get it done. And then if they're not doing it, have a discussion and then if they're still not doing it, then it's time to probably let them go. But yeah, I mean you can't, you can't micromanage that process and expect greatness. I, you know, I tried that. It were, it failed. If it continues to fail, anytime I repeat that, occasionally I come back to that mistake and then I'm like, ah, no, that's old Dave. You gotta you gotta stick with new. Dave knew Dave doesn't do that. New Dave is leaving that alone and trusting this person to get it done. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's really hard.
Speaker 2 05:16 It is hard. It is our <inaudible> I've been talking with, uh, David Hensel who was on the podcast. She's, I dunno, 30 episodes ago or something like that and he's, he's like over in this other world. He's a German guy but he lives in Turkey. And so he's kind of like a unofficial mentor for these kinds of things. Cause he's like the total ease risen above his business in this respect. And he has like one on one calls with each of his managers once a week and he has a one team meeting every Monday morning and that's it. And I'm like, how the fuck can you do that? And he's like, just do it. Like it's not how, it's just you do it and then you figure out how to make the rest of the business and the people in the business support that because that's how a business should run.
Speaker 2 05:56 It shouldn't that you are glued to slack for 10 hours a day. No, no. Then you don't have a business. You have a job. Yeah. It's the difference between a business and a job. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, and I'll, I'll stop bitching cause this is just very, not me, but so the, the other thing that like I think is unique from my situation. Well, anyone who like has a global team that's in a bunch of different time zones is what I also have found. And I think this is why I felt so bad, like emotionally is like I spend all morning basically like with the development team cause they're both, all of our, both of our developers for <inaudible> are in my time zone. So we do product and engineering and you know, stuff in the morning and then two or three o'clock in the afternoon, both Eileen, our support and designer comes online and Denise, our marketer comes online.
Speaker 2 06:46 And so then I get to work from like, you know, two or three to six or seven, uh, with them. And that's like, Whoa, you know, this is a 10 hour day really quick. And I, I am never, sorry, rob and I in our, I am never gonna work 10 hour days consistently, but I have been like in the last couple of weeks, I have been working several 10 hour days a week. And it's my fault for letting that happen and taking too many meetings and not having structure around stuff and not enabling the team to do more. And I know they'll listen to this and they're probably saying like, wow, I didn't, I didn't know it was that bad and it's not that bad. It's just like I've just felt like some of these things have been like creeping in. But overall man, things are going great. Like we're growing a lot and we actually just like did a really disruptive thing for the business, which I think will turn out to be really good.
Speaker 2 07:39 But we can talk about that later. You're not going to share. I haven't <inaudible> so I'll share and I'll just get all of this stuff off my plate and we can talk about what's been going on with you and recapture. Yeah, so the, the big thing that we got out of the tiny seed retreat a couple months ago is that we should do a no credit card trial process for costos. So for the last two and a half years, we've done, you know, credit card at sign up, like a lot of hosting companies. But what we've noticed is like a lot of the newer and progressive companies are not doing that in our space specifically. And a lot of Sass apps just in general don't ask for credit card up front. And so we turned that on on September 1st will September 2nd cause it's uh, September 1st was a Sunday. We turned that on about two weeks ago.
Speaker 2 08:26 And uh, it is amazing what's going on. I mean we're, we're still kind of just waiting to see what the result will be, but I mean we're getting, you know, five times the number of new trials that we had before. And the big thing that everyone worries about is all your support is going to go through the roof. Um, it's almost exactly the same as it was before. Like I look at the reports and helpscout and our ticket volume is up like very slightly, but we've done a lot of things to get ready for this to make onboarding easier in the app. And so I think that that's really paying off with like having a whole bunch more people in the app and uh, and not seeing a lot more support requests. So fingers,
Speaker 1 09:07 is that a lagging indicator though? Like is it going to take them a while? Like you get the new customer on board and that you don't start to see support issues for like a week or two weeks or three weeks. Cause you just said you turned it on two weeks ago. So I'm just wondering is the storm coming and you just haven't hit it yet?
Speaker 2 09:21 Possible? Yeah, totally possible. But I mean I think the dip possible but I think that, I mean we have just a whole lot more people using the app now. So if that was, if all those people had issues, we would be hearing from more of them. And it might just be that it's so bad that they just don't want to use it. But, but I don't think that's the case. I mean people are converting already and stuff. So I'm sure this will take us a while to figure out, you know, figuring out what our conversion rate is because basically all of our SAS metrics just went out the window, you know, number of new trials a month conversion rate churn probably will change with this. LTV might change. I don't know. So it's a really exciting thing cause I think this is something that can open us, open the top of the funnel a lot for us. But it's scary that the business was super predictable before, you know, our metrics were, were really, really, really consistent from month to month and now I don't, you know, I have no idea what to expect and you know, whatever six weeks from now or two a month from now at this point. So
Speaker 1 10:23 we'll see. It'll be, it'll be interesting to revisit that topic I think in the next two to three months when you start to see the 60 and 90 day cohorts and what kind of retention you have in that. Because I think that'll start to tell you what you know are, are there holes in the onboarding, are there holes in their experience? You know, are there, is it a different class of customer that's coming in and just like looking at the pricing after that period of time and saying, Hey, you know, this isn't worth it for me. That that will be fascinating to see because these are obviously, I mean they're potentially different kinds of customers, a different customer persona, right?
Speaker 2 11:01 Yeah, very potentially very potentially. And I think the key to making this work, like when I was thinking about why we didn't do this at the beginning, the biggest one is like takes, uh, for me it's for me took a little bit of reflection to admit is that you're scared that your app sucks. And if a whole bunch of people see it and have no reason to convert because they haven't put their credit card in that they're not going to convert. Whereas like if you can get them to put their credit card in upfront cause your marketing and you're on page copy on the marketing side is good enough, then they're kind of invested already. But with no credit card trial, like your app has to be really, really good to convince somebody to keep using it. And I think that along with the support argument that that's probably like the one that I realized was like, my biggest reason for not doing this from the very beginning is like I don't know how comfortable I am that we can sell people with how the app performs. Now I'm really confident because we've, it's a really great app. But I mean when we launched that would have been a different story. Cause it was, it was a very different experience, you know, two and a half years ago.
Speaker 1 12:03 Yeah. It's interesting to find what makes people convert. So with recapture a, what I've found over the past five months is I, cause we send out an automated automating things through intercom that says, you know, why did you pick us? How did you hear about us? Just, and you know, I don't get a hundred percent response rate on that. I don't even get 50 or 25% response rate on that. But I do get people that are coming in occasionally and they're almost, and this is before that we talk about like the upgrades to the a paid account or any of that stuff. So that's a whole different matter. But the reason that they just come in and try us out in the first place, it's usually because a, we have a free plan B because we are highly rated on the Shopify app store and see, because they heard about our customer service from the other reviews. And then usually those same people that are actually bothering to come back and say something to me are the ones that upgrade to paid. So I assume that those things are important enough that once they figure out, oh, the app works too. All of that becomes a package. And they're like, yeah, I'm good. Sign me up. Yeah. So I wonder, I wonder what that experience will be like for you since you are just opening up those flood gates now.
Speaker 2 13:21 Yeah, yeah, we'll see. I mean, we've done a ton of work to try to get more data around what people are doing in the app. You don't have events with drip and workflows that are smarter around all this stuff. So I feel like, I mean the whole experience is better all around and Denise has been heading up a lot of that on our side and it's been great to have some help there. But yeah, it's, I mean Jerry is definitely still out. Our first customers should be converting, you know, by the time this episode goes live. So I am very nervous. I'm very anxious to see how this turns out, uh, here in the next few days. Yeah, we'll, we'll use that instead of the, a terrible one. All right. Um, right. How about you man? How are things, uh, in recapture land?
Speaker 1 14:03 Ah, Gosh, there's so much going on right now. So let me, before we get into recapture, which is actually the interesting stuff. Uh, let me just update on the plugins a little bit. So we've been pushing through our four dot. Oh release for AWP PCP and the support queue just totally got out of hand for awhile. In fact, it's still not perfect right now. Uh, but we're finally struggling to kind of get that under control. There may need to be some changes on my development side of that that need to come in the near future, but we can discuss that on a different episode. But for recapture, I just went, so, you know, we're having another great month of growth, which is awesome. Nice. And let me tell you, I'm, I'm kicking myself, kicking myself for not putting in this automatic expansion revenue into the model earlier.
Speaker 1 14:57 Cause had I done this six months earlier than I did, I would be so much farther along right now. And I'm just, it's just constant face palming that I'm looking at this going, this has been consistently growing. It's not, you know, it wasn't the card hook integration. I still get card hook customers and they're great, but that's not like the main driver of my revenue. The main driver of the revenue is I get people signing up, they use the app, and then a lot of times what I'll see is those people, we either have like a big store or they'll have several store fronts and then they sign up all those stores. And so they aggregate in the revenue. And then as a result of that, that turns into expansion revenue like 60 days down the line. So what I've seen every month so far is something that happened 60 days ago where all these stores signed up.
Speaker 1 15:45 And then finally they hit that threshold where I did the calculation and I'm like, Oh look, you just bumped up to the highest tier or the second highest tier. And so I've seen like these massive jumps in revenue every month. And I'm like, Oh my God, why? Why did I not do that sooner? So anyway, the punchline of all of this is that my year over year growth from September, 2018 to September, 2019 is 2.5 x on recapture right now. Whoa. No Shit. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm super happy about that. I am super blown away. But now like, you know, as I'm starting to go up here, I'm starting to see, you know, just scaling problems, right? This is a good problem to have. But you know, now that I'm hitting all of these, it's like customer support is starting to get a little out of hand, not to the point where I can't handle it.
Speaker 1 16:41 It's just I'm getting more and more requests off my hours. So I'll get stuff overnight where people are signing up from like Singapore and Hong Kong and Australia and India where I'm flipped on the time zone. And so they, you know, want to have a live chat and I can't do the live chat at three in the morning and will let me rephrase that. I don't want to do the live chat at three in the morning, so that's not gonna happen. But I'm getting those requests now more often than I was before. And I'm seeing more things like you know, the onboarding and I have it, you know, I've talked about this several times where I'm getting the people onboarding and then some of them are just bailing and you know, I'm not getting a good reason why they're baling and Shopify does this really lame exit survey.
Speaker 1 17:30 Why do you and installing this app and you get, you know, really juicy bits like does not meet my needs or I found a better app superhero or other that real, you know, the most helpful one of all other and sometimes sometimes they will actually bother to type in there but 99% of the time it is completely unhelpful. So I'm not getting direct feedback all the time like what's going on and why these people are bailing, you know, is it because they really want something like Klaviyo and I don't have the all those features, is it because they tried something and they couldn't figure it out? Is it because they didn't get my documentation and other stuff fast enough? You know where they trying to figure things out and they get an email within. I think the first hour, but that depends very much on like intercom and drips deliverability at any given time.
Speaker 1 18:17 So that could be affecting things. Right. And you know, there's other stuff, like I'm now getting to a point where people are telling me, Oh, do you have feature x? And I'm like, oh, well that's on our roadmap. But you know, and that previously was an okay answer. Now I'm actually, I saw the other day that a feature that we had, you know, from three or four months ago that I didn't have the time to finish and was trying to get Mike to work on, but other stuff came up and these integrations came up and they got prioritized accordingly. And now we didn't finish that feature. And I actually lost two customers in a week because I didn't have that feature. And I'm like, dammit, no. And you know, I can't tell how big their stores work. It could have been really small, it could have been really big.
Speaker 1 19:00 But you know, they weren't, they didn't have it installed long enough for me to tell because it takes about 24 hours for the Shopify API to allow me to provision and find out what their 30 day revenue is. Yeah. So I mean we're just, we're having good growth problems, but you know, I am limited in my bandwidth in there and I'm still trying to deal with my consulting problem that we talked about from before. Uh, where I'm actively looking for a new gig and trying to find something that is compatible with what I'm doing now. And at this point, you know, now that I've seen this kind of growth in recapture, like if I had been part of the tiny seed batch that you're in right now, I would be in a really good spot to like use that money to fund, you know, this would be a perfect time to say screw consulting.
Speaker 1 19:47 I'm out of this. I'm done now. I'm just going full time on recapture. I'm like, I'm on the cusp of being there. Like I've done the calculations and I probably need about five to six k more MRR to get there. You know, it's just a couple of months. Then at the rate you're growing it sounds like, Huh? Well maybe not quite that. That good. Is this a little bit slower than that? But, and it's going to slow down here in October. I know that for a fact, as soon as like October, November hit, that's usually like locked down time for stores. So I'm expecting things to be flat the last three months out of the year. It could surprise me, but I, I'm, I'm thinking that most stores will just go into lockdown mode. But with that said, I mean that's really close. Right. You know, that's, that's pretty exciting. It's just, but if I get to that point, that means like there's no experimentation budget there.
Speaker 1 20:37 You know, all of the thing is coming back to me. And that would also mean that I might have to do some wordpress stuff like development stuff and I don't know that I'm super excited about that cause that's going to take away from the focus of recapture. So I think I need to get a little farther along the mat but still like this is not now that I'm seeing all this growth and now that I have a channel that's working and I can double down on it and I'm seeing activity and all of this stuff, like it's achievable, right? Yeah. It's not just some pipe dream where I'm like, Oh yeah, I want to double everything here in the year. No, I mean I'm, I'm working on it. So this is, this is very exciting.
Speaker 2 21:18 That is, uh, I'm super excited for you. I'm super excited for whatever, a couple months or six months or a year or whatever it is. When you can go full time and see how different like you feel about the business and how different the businesses, once you're able to do that. Cause I mean it's just night and day two to be able to spend 100% of your time on one thing and you won't have 100% of the time because you have your plugins, like I've podcast motor that still takes up whatever percent of your time and your mental energy. But I mean, just being able to focus and knowing that like the majority of your glucose goes towards one thing is huge for the ability to move the needle there. And like, since we joined t or since we applied, really enjoying tiny seed that's, you know, been cast us for me and it's, you know, I think it's shown in our, in our growth and how much better the app and the service and the marketing, all that, everything about the business so much better since we're able to focus. So I'm very excited for you that it's going well and I'm sure everyone listening is super excited to, uh, to, to hear the day that you're able to quit the consulting and go full time. That's really cool, man.
Speaker 1 22:23 Yeah. Yeah. So at this point it may just be hang on to the consulting for this brief window until I can actually hit that or it may mean change to something else. You know, my wife and I have already had conversations and we've looked at our expenses and you know, we've cut things back so that, you know, if I do change at this point it's not going to be like this major shock to things. And we're watching things a lot more carefully. And you know, we have some financial cushions and other stuff like that. So it's there w you know, we have this in process. So, and I guess at this point we can also talk about the you, so you remember the three episodes ago I had talked to a alluded to, you know, I was, I had an interesting opportunity and I couldn't talk about it then.
Speaker 1 23:07 Yeah, well I can talk about it now. So this, I was trying to apply to basically run a javascript framework community and hosting platform that another private equity firm had bought. And I went through the process and I th you know, we actually got pretty far along on it, you know, several conversations and email. Like I'm just out of the blue emailing these guys and they're like, oh this sounds really interesting. Like you have open source experience, you've got this community stuff experience. Oh, and you've got SAS experience, maybe you're the right guy for this. And you know, we got deep into conversations with it and you know, I don't know how many other people I actually was competing against. I think it was at least two other serious candidates in there. But in the end they obviously didn't pick me since I'm still consulting here.
Speaker 1 23:54 Uh, but you know, I got really far down that I was super excited about it. I was talking with some other folks about, you know, what do you think about this firm and what do you think about this role and what do you think I should emphasize in this? Like, you know, I was just trying to extricate myself and I also would like to say thank you to everybody who sent me tweets or dms or emails about where I'm at right now. Uh, I really appreciate all of that. The sentiments that everybody sent me were, uh, very much helpful in trying to keep my head screwed on straight here and, uh, the right mental attitude for this time. But you know, obviously that position didn't pan out. It looked like a really awesome opportunity. But you know, when it came down to it, they were basically concerned about my ability to run a SAS at scale. And you know, I certainly could have done that, but they were looking for somebody with prior exact experience. So it was like, wow, okay, I don't have that prior exact experience, but you know, I could easily handle this. And yes, I have a lot of connections that would allow me to get what I needed to to make this happen. But that wasn't what they were looking for and it's not what they were comfortable with. So that is <inaudible>
Speaker 2 25:08 is a tall order to find someone to come in as a product manager who's run a SAS business, a large SAS business before. I mean, I don't know anyone who has run their own assessments that wants to then go work for someone else running their, you know, putting, making someone else rich. I, you know, I, I don't, I, I get that that's what they're looking for, but that, that just seems kind of bizarre to me.
Speaker 1 25:30 It was. Yeah. I mean I, I kind of understand where they're coming from on this. You know, there are PE firms they've got, yeah, they just bought this business. They want somebody that is low risk to make sure that it's successful. I get that. I totally get that. You know, you just spent a crap ton of money on this. You don't want to waste your investment down the drain. Yup. With that said, you know, how quickly is it going to be before this person gets bored, right. Cause they're not doing something that necessarily extends them, excites them. You know, they probably already have some mastery of this and now they're just an execution mode. So where are they going to get their purpose out of this? I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2 26:09 I also would say like, I think there's a silver lining to this that is, if you took that job, you would be less focused on recapture, recapture wood in the little, you know, whatever medium to long term would be less successful. Whereas now like you're seeing this growth, the opportunity to go full time on it is realistically there. Right. Like it's gonna, it's gonna come soon. And Yeah, if you can stick out the consulting Gig or whatever it is to make the most money with the least amount of work for the next six months, then you'll be like the place you want to be and you will only have this new job that you have to go then quit and not piss those guys off or whatever. Just like stick out whatever you have going now. Make as much money as you can to save up or extend the runway or whatever and then go full time. And then I think when you do that and you have a business that's making 10 or 15 grand a month, like you're good. You know, like Rob, rob says, your default alive, right? Like the business makes enough to pay for you. You have time to spend on it. The world is not going to fall apart tomorrow, you know, or you're not gonna run out of money.
Speaker 1 27:08 Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that, you know, when I started looking for this, it wasn't like a sure thing. Like the, you know, I didn't have that full extra month of growth in here. I had seen others. But you know, I don't know how you feel about cast hosts, but you know, I still kind of feel this way about the plugins. You know, now that I've got all this history with them, I feel a little less like that. But you know, with recapture, it's like I have this sensation in the back of my mind like, oh, that previous month was a fluke, they're all going to cancel this month and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna have that MRR anymore and I'm going to be back to where I was. But you know, that's not happening. And that's not, you know, it's not even a rational position to be taking because obviously if they were really mad, you know, there's probably other indicators on there and stuff changes with people's businesses and sure, I have churn, but it's not like it's not killing my business. And the growth is far, far greater than what I have for voluntary or even delinquent churn. So, you know, just, yeah, having that confidence to say, all right, I'm going to totally rely on this business for my income now is, is scary, right? Yeah, it's definitely, I'm sure I haven't even gotten to all of the possible fears that I will face when, when I'm getting ready to shut off consulting and turn that on and say this is it. Here we go. Yeah,
Speaker 2 28:33 yeah, yeah. I hear you man. I mean we, you know, the, the journey that we went through was kind of similar to yours. It's like we knew it was going to happen a long way away, like a year and a half away. We knew it was going to happen and at that, and you've been kind of going towards this too and that that really helps because then you know, like, okay, I need this much in savings. Business needs to be doing this much. If it's not paying all the bills, that's cool. I need to have a year of runway for whatever that difference is for that, whatever that burn is. And, and like coming into it really gradually. Like that is, for me, it was like a lot easier than just saying like, Oh, I lost my job today. I guess I'll go rely on this SAS business that's making six grand a month and we'll figure it out like that. That would scare the hell out of me. But, but you going into this, making the decision with all the time controlling the world, you know, I think when the time comes, you will have thought about all this stuff and lost sleep and drank too much thinking about it and, and it'll be fine. Yeah. And the business will grow so much more than than it is now because you'll have so much time.
Speaker 1 29:34 Yeah. I mean that's certainly the hope, but you know, it's like there's a light at the end of the tunnel and I don't think it's a train. So I, you know, that feels pretty good. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah. You know, it's still still so many questions and still, you know, keeping options open and still looking around for stuff. But yeah, I mean, uh, that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. That's awesome man. That's awesome.
Speaker 2 29:56 I think that about wraps us up for today. If anyone has any kind of questions or thoughts or suggestions for us for the show, please send us a message podcast@roguestartups.com. Uh, we've, like you said, Dave, we've had more than usual lately, especially since like the burnout episode if you episodes ago. And it's great to hear from everybody. So for those of you who haven't sent us an email yet, get off your ass, send us an email, let us know what you're thinking, how we're doing, what you want to hear more or less of. And if you're enjoying the show, please share it with someone else who you think would enjoy it as well. Until next week,
Speaker 3 30:40 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 30:44 thanks for listening to another episode of rogue startups. If you haven't already, head over to iTunes and leave a rating and review for the show for show notes from each episode and a few extra resources to help you along your journey. Head over to rogue startups.com to learn more. <inaudible>.
