RS176: How a Market Influences Your Success

Speaker 0 00:00 Okay. <inaudible> welcome to the rogue startups podcast, where to start up, founders are sharing lessons learned and pitfalls to avoid in their online businesses. And now here's Dave and Craig. All right, Speaker 1 00:24 welcome to episode one 76 of rogue startups. Craig, how are you this week? Speaker 2 00:30 I am good man. I'm good. I am late to our call today and canceled on you last week day. So I'm in the, I'm in the dog house big time, but uh, we're here and we've got some, uh, some good stuff planned. Speaker 1 00:43 Well you did go on vacation so I can totally forgive that because it's not like a, I haven't been out of town a few times as well. Yeah, that's always good. Good to get some downtime. So, uh, did you have a good time? Speaker 2 00:55 I did. I did. Yeah, it was a, it was definitely a workcation, uh, worked about half the time, uh, which was cool and yeah, got a lot of good stuff done. Uh, so it was cool. We are revisiting actually some friends of ours from when we lived in California who were in Ireland for like a week and a half. So we went over to Dublin and then Delta Kilkenny and uh, hung out with them for four days. It was cool. Speaker 1 01:18 Nice. Nice. And uh, how many, uh, pubs did you end up visiting there? Uh, all of them I think. Very nice. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is Good. Speaker 2 01:32 Yeah, that was good. Yeah. How about you? How are things Speaker 1 01:36 good? I have had a very busy two weeks here. Um, so we are on the precipice of a major release for the classified plugin. It's been in Beta testing since December. Wow. And yeah, I mean it's been a long time. It was probably ready about a month ago, maybe shoe months ago, but then it fell to me to get ready for the, you know, all the release activities that go with it. So at the same time that we were doing this release, I was going to use this as an impetus for, uh, changing the support renewal prices for Awv ECB, which I had already done with a business directory plugin a long time ago. And I just never went and did the whole thing with AWS GCP, which was Kinda dumb. Uh, but it is what it is. So anyway, because I was gonna change the pricing here, that meant that I needed to have the special nick Francis helpscout email. Speaker 1 02:36 I needed to update that. And then I realized that the website was looking a little dated and why would somebody want to pay for a plugin? It looks like it's from 2011 instead of 12, 19. So then that left me with, okay, I need to update this website, but I want to do it as quickly and as painlessly as possible. So, uh, I thought about hiring it out, but I got some quotes. They were kind expensive and they were talking about like two months and I'm like, I can't do tomorrow. Yeah. So I mean, I ended up spending like 10 days on it tops. Um, and finally figured out what the Hell I was doing wrong. I remember a few episodes back that I was like totally confused by studio press and now I found out where all my changes were. It was all inside the widgets on the front page. Speaker 1 03:23 And so I finally got that all in tangled and I was able to start copying stuff over from BD so that the two sites basically looked very similar at this point, which is fine because the brown, the branding was supposed to be that the two are very similar. And so now I finally brought that branding up to speed and then there were some changes that had to happen in the accounts page. And then I had to enable all this stuff for Edd and cause we have like 15 different products that we're selling an EDD and every one of them had to be flipped to recurring for the single in the multisite variance. And then I had to test all of this stuff and yeah, it was nightmare. Um, and then at the same time we're also, we need to upgrade our docs. Um, you know, I needed to send out notices for people that are doing Beta stuffs. Speaker 1 04:08 I mean, it's just been like this long task list from Hell. And the good news is I just sent out the first email today. So, uh, it was about three hours ago and nobody's a super pissed off yet. So that's no time, no f bombs. That's excellent. No, not yet. But I mean, every good email, if you haven't gotten at least one fuck off, then you're not doing, uh, you're not sending enough emails. So, uh, I'm hoping that I get at least one so far. I've got a couple of people that are like, just, I don't, I'm not using this, don't renew us. Please make sure we don't get renewed and nothing is automatic at this point. So it's like, yeah, no problem. We're good. Um, but yeah, I mean just trying to dot all those i's and cross all those t's and put everything in place. Speaker 1 04:50 And I think I have it all set up, so we're just basically on cruise control for the rest of June except for support. Like they need to handle all the account upgrade stuff and creating things and fixing EDD, EDD stuff. So I think that's now officially off my plate, so that's good. Awesome. And Bobby's able to do all of that, uh, support stuff for, with your, along with your developers? Uh, well it's going to be mostly Bobby. Um, very little meat except for like, you know, here's an account that's so fucked up that only you can fix it and believe me we get those cause there's like some very special things that happen from two years ago that we're still reaping the benefits to say where I screwed up. I mixed up the accounts for like one week where people's business directory stuff was renewing on ADB PCP stripe account. Speaker 1 05:42 Oh man, I totally jacked with Edd. So I mean it wasn't a huge number. I think in total we had like 10 transactions that went through to that, that there is still active and every year it's like, Oh God, I've got to deal with this. And there's good way because they have special renewal discounts that are locked in at this point, their legacy discounts. And if I take them out and do a manual renew, they lose the discounts. So keep suffering through it. And then, you know, this is the second year and we're getting some grumpy or emails this year on them. So I'm gonna see if I can find some way to better solve those problems. But it's for like seven, you know, seven accounts that are renewing at this point out of more than a thousand. So, you know, how much effort do you really want to put into it? Yeah, yeah. It's not like for a hundreds of dollars in each case it's like, you know, here's $20, right value. This doesn't merit like a ton of time being spent on it. So yeah, it's frustrating. Speaker 2 06:37 Yeah. Yeah. Um, Manda the homepage redesign thing is, is tough. I feel your pain. I mean, I looked, when we rebranded to cast those, we looked for a good wordpress theme for Sas. Then, uh, I was looking again recently because we're going through a similar kind of rebranding exercise now, I shouldn't say rebranding, but redesigned the home page and marketing page redesign now. And Yeah, I mean you get the stuff from like theme forest that requires like seven mandatory plugins and Ella Mentor and all this kind of stuff. And I'm like man, I want somebody that looks good and I add the content to it and it looks just like the demo, not like here's the guts and use a page builder to build this awesome website. I just can't get over it that there's not like a good SAS or like software specific lightweight theme that works out of the box without all this other crap that goes along with it. It's just astonishing. Speaker 1 07:41 Yeah. I mean I had the same thing even with studio press. There's still a whole lot of these, you know, if you want this look, you know, install these 17 plugins tends to go with it. And I still have that stupid thing at the top of my thing. I think it finally dismissed. But you know, I only needed like of the 10 required quote unquote required plugins. I needed three of them right now cause I'm not doing woo commerce and I'm not doing their slider and I'm not doing the portfolio. And it's like, okay, well you just don't have these things, then it doesn't matter. But yeah, I mean I see where they're coming from and I know a lot of people have done that, but it is, it is super annoying if you're going for something simple. But that is, that is the core of where wordpress is at right now. They're trying to do like these massive bundles and as a result of these bundles, you know, there's just a lot of bloat that goes on in there. Yeah. And then, you know, uh, we could go on a whole thing about wordpress these days, so I'm not going to distract us from this episode at this point, but yeah, there's shit going on in wordpress that annoys the hell out of me. Speaker 2 08:42 Yeah. So we are full in Koolaid mode. We are our new site and homepage and everything is going to be like Gutenberg and block from the ground up. Uh, so it'll be actually a really interesting experience. Uh, it looks awesome. It'll be live before word WordCamp Europe. Uh, we have Eileen on our team is like a designer, front end Dev and she's like big and the Gutenberg and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, look, if you can make it look pretty and go for it because otherwise I'm going to spend like a 30 hours on this thing and it'll look like shit. Uh, and yeah, she's doing all these like atomic blocks and stuff and it's really interesting what she's able to do. So stay tuned. I guess I have hope. I have hope for Gutenberg after this. Speaker 1 09:26 Well, good, good. Yes, I replied to a tweet that Matt Modaris had been out there recently about um, Gutenberg and block plugins and stuff like that. So we could probably have a whole episode just talking about that sometime Speaker 2 09:39 we should have him on and just, yeah, I'd be Speaker 1 09:43 roasts Roast Gutenberg a little bit here and see where things are at. I would love to hear about the state of it from other people because it definitely, I, I mean there's a thing in the dashboard that shows classic editor 5 million installs, four and a half out of five stars, and then there's Gutenberg, two stars. Yeah. 500 or 200,000 installs. So it's like the ratios are way off on that. So people are very much not migrating to Gutenberg and mass right now. Yep, Yep. It is what it is, you know, I mean, I think there's a lot of fun and stuff going on with that, but yeah. All right. Anyway, we're getting totally off topic. Speaker 2 10:24 Uh, hold on. It's great man. It's great to, for you guys to be able to really a big major update and hopefully it helps, uh, you know, the automatic renewals and everything. Hopefully it moves the business long. That's cool. Speaker 1 10:35 Yeah. I mean, automatic renewals have been a big needle mover in business directory and uh, you know, they've been in place now for two years and I should have done this with AWS, GCP. Absolutely. At the same time. So this is two years of lost opportunity, but between the two, it was clear which of the two I needed to really do it on. Yeah. So I mean, I just should've done it a long time ago. It's done now and I'll start reaping the benefit of that next year or so. Speaker 2 10:58 Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Speaker 1 11:00 Right. How are things on your side? Speaker 2 11:03 Uh, things are good, man. Things are good. Getting, uh, getting into the swing of things. Uh, liquid, tiny seed and cast those, um, it's cool to have, there's a fair amount of structure, so we have like a weekly group calls, um, and then like a really active slack channel, uh, that's like rob and INR and the mentors and the other 10, me and the other 10 companies and Tracy, uh, so there's a lot of stuff going on there. Uh, which is cool. It's like, you know, another team that were part of, um, so it's cool. Maybe a little, it is definitely different. Uh, maybe a little distracting, uh, from some of the other things that I had going on in terms of like communication styles and, and stuff like that. But overall, really, really, really positive. Just a lot of great resources, uh, in the group there and yeah, is doing some really cool things. We launched just earlier today are automated transcription service. Uh, so Dave, every rogue startups episode will now be transcribed full transcription. Uh, so yeah, Speaker 1 12:07 now we can get the f bombs index by Google. Speaker 2 12:10 Yup. Yup. So it'll be a really cool, actually it's, I mean it's really, it's like we're using, we're using an AI driven voice to text, uh, engine. No, it's really a really cool API we're able to tap into and yeah, it's a really cool feature to be able to offer to our customers, um, and offers us kind of a first step on the path towards getting more features and tools into our customer's hands to let them build bigger and better podcasts. So it's pretty cool to be able to do this as like a first step. It's like pretty self contained and we're going to be building on other things like this as we go. Uh, you know, in the future, which is really cool to have that kind of vision for the product. Speaker 1 12:55 So is this on podcast motor or cast us the, this is on Castro's. Yup. Okay. All right, cool. Yeah, that's exciting. I know that, uh, you know, we've always wanted to have the transcription thing here, but it wasn't always cost effective to do that with people involved. So yeah. That's cool. Speaker 2 13:12 Yeah, it's really cool. I mean, it's, um, it's, yeah, definitely a huge price difference. So like transcription services like rev.com or like a dollar a minute. Um, and we're transcribing for 10 cents a minute, uh, through Castillo's. Speaker 1 13:28 You might have to go through and clean things up a bit, Speaker 2 13:30 but uh, yeah, I mean, for our episodes it's, you know, $4 an episode or something like that. Speaker 1 13:34 Yeah. Wow. That's, that's huge. That's, Yep. Yep. I mean, it's all down to accuracy, so if you're doing machine stuff, obviously it's not going to be perfect. But I mean, I've seen the stuff that comes out of people and let me tell you that. Perfect. Either so then ain't perfect. Yeah. Perfect. Speaker 2 13:53 So, yeah, that's cool. It's, it's been a, it's been a long time coming. We've been thinking about this for a long time, so it's nice to actually, you know, birth this baby and get it out the door and search. You want it to customers here. Speaker 1 14:04 Yeah. Super exciting. Yeah. I'll be looking forward to see or are you going to do a back transcriptions of all of our previous episodes? Uh, yeah. Yup. Sweet. All right. Watch out Google. We're going to drop the Google bomb here. 175 there's one for transcripts. Yeah. Well hopefully that pushes us up in the rank in there. I know that the podcast transcriptions I think make a big difference in terms of like discoverability, especially when it's like content specific stuff. So it'll be interesting to see. Speaker 2 14:34 Yeah, I mean that's one of our big, you know, marketing messages, you know, one is definitely accessibility. People that are hearing impaired, you know, need transcripts to be able to consume the content you're putting out. And the other is, yeah, I mean the, the amount of information that's created by podcast episode on page is really small. Right? I mean the show for our show Speaker 1 14:52 are not huge. I mean, I know some people spend hours on it. We don't spend that much time. Um, and they're like maybe a page long and our transcriptions would be like 15 pages. So yeah, there's definitely like an Seo, you know, uh, argument to be made. So yeah, maybe one of these days I'll get a wild hair up my ass and come in and do the wordpress theme site change that I keep threatening to do for rogue startups. So it's not the genesis a sample template that's totally on a unmodified. Yeah. Oh, well, you know, I was just going to switch the sample templates so it looks like we were doing something. But uh, so, uh, what are we talking about? Sweet man. Well, so there's been some discussion on Twitter lately and let me just say, I've not been impressed with that discussion. Speaker 1 15:43 Mm. Um, yeah. So Justin Jackson has got this thing going on on there about markets and market size and he's been harping pretty hard about like, just being in a market that's big enough. And I'm going to call bullshit on this one here. And here's why I'm going to say this. So it is, that is one of many factors I think that can really influence the, the success factor of a market, I guess we'll call it. And you know, he's basically saying this is it. You know, it's all about the fish. If you don't, you know, have the fish, you're not going to do well in this market here. And I've not seen that in my experience. I've seen and you know, I think there's a lot of vague terms that were all banting about here and nobody is spending any time defining these. And honestly, I don't know that I'm going to do a good job of it here either. Speaker 1 16:42 But we talk about the notion of success. So first of all, what is success in a market? If you run a business that you can basically live your life and you're happy and you don't, you know, you grow to a certain point, but you're okay. Is that success? I would say that it is. Um, is it success if you make it to seven or eight figures as a business or it's big enough that you could go to Unicorn status? I mean, those are all definitions of success. The question is what's the one that's important to you? And it's not clear from Justin stuff as to what he's really saying is the success metric per se. And I think that's part of the things that everybody's kind of digging into him about. Like, well, you know, you could have something that makes x hundred thousand a year and it could be successful. Speaker 1 17:32 Like that might be fine for you. That might be all you wanted or all you needed to be successful. And there are plenty, there are definitely plenty of markets where you could get to that level there. And it's not like there's like gazillions and gazillions of customers. Um, you know, we keep pointing out the, the more aware example a lot on here. And, and Harry and Ted are good friends of mine. So, you know, I always like to, to pimp their business whenever I can. But you know, these guys are not in a huge market and there'll be the first to tell you that it's a very small market and as a result of being a small market, they know that there's a certain number of customers that on there, and by Justin's definition it sounds like this should not be a successful niche market. Speaker 1 18:16 He somehow turned that argument into something that proved his point, which I didn't think was quite the right way to phrase that. But the, the point that I was trying to raise with, with Harry and Ted and more aware is that they've got a lot of customers that they solve a pain that is incredibly painful for these people. And so these people are like willing to pay an ungodly amount of money to do this because it is absolutely like beyond aspirin for them. And it doesn't matter that they only have a few hundred or a thousand customers in this entire market. They're doing really well and they're going to continue to do really well because it's not like the customers that are there have a lot of other choices that are better than what Harry and Ted offer. So they have a very successful business that if you talk to them privately, they will happily tell you that they are a successful business and haven't been as successful business for a long time. Was it harder to get started? Sure. It was absolutely harder to get started. But because they're serving this very specific niche, they have, you know, they have a lot of competitive advantages that somebody coming into this would not have at this point. Speaker 2 19:25 Hmm. Speaker 1 19:25 So I mean, you know, I just think it's not as simple as he's trying to make in this argument that Justin is trying to make in this argument. It's all about about the size of the market. I think there's so much more that really goes into this. Speaker 2 19:38 Yeah, no. So I've not read the article or saw the Twitter thread you're referring to, but just talking about markets and customer types and personas. I think the size of the market is definitely like a, there, there's a a bar above which your market needs to exist in terms of size and that's can be really small, right? Countertop estimation software and evidently is a big enough market. And so I think that means basically anything that you can think of is a big enough market, right? Like I can't think of a market that's much smaller than that. So I think you can say any market where there are businesses that have several employees is a big enough market. Um, but I think the more important thing, maybe the most important thing for me, and like we see this a little bit with Casto and we see the opposite side of it with podcast motor in the same industry is people's willingness to pay and their price sensitivity. Speaker 2 20:39 So podcast motor. Yep. Yep. So within the same industry, we see the two opposites west. Sometimes it can be the ends of it. We have podcast motor where we start at, you know, $500 a month and we have cast us where we start at $19 a month and we have cast those customers who are saying, Hey, I get paid on the third of the month. Can you move my bill to be, you know, coming out on the fifth of the month and we have, you know, podcast motor customers. We had one last year who was a customer of ours for six months and never published an episode. And we emailed him every week and said, hey, are you going to send us any files? You know, and they said, Yep, I'll be sending you something soon. And they paid us for six months and never used our service once. Speaker 2 21:20 They obviously were not very price sensitive. But I think that if you are in a super price sensitive market, it changes a lot of the dynamics of the business. I think if you can be in something like SAS in a business where it's not super price sensitive, um, then you really, really, really have something. And so maybe Justin because knowing what he might be going through, maybe he's coming up against some of this price sensitivity. Um, and the other thing I would put in there is like a long with price sensitivity is the opportunity for expansion revenue. If you don't have either a customer who's willing to pay you or a business model, that automatically expands as you go. Uh, weird customers pay you more every month as they're more successful in your app, like an email marketing system or a CRM or something like that where the more you use it, the more you pay a and everyone's happy that, that you're more successful together. Um, if you can get those two things together, then you really, really have something. If you can't or don't have either of those, then I think growing or having success is a lot harder. Speaker 1 22:28 Yeah, totally agree with you on the expansion revenue and the willingness to pay. Those are two major, major things in a market. Um, but there's also the stuff that we talked about in a previous episode. You remember our headwinds and tailwinds. Yep. Yeah. So, uh, Keaton and Steli recently had an episode that was basically talking about a market trend. So you could be early in a market and that market could be going up and that market may be small, but the market could expand in the future. Conversely, the market could be big. Now the trend is going down and the market is going to contract. So you gotta you can't just be in any old market that's big. You gotta time the market or you could be in a market that's small but on way up like Shopify Apps, uh, 2014, those were in a small, small market today. Shopify apps. If you had been in the store in 2014, Holy Shit, you would've been sitting pretty by now because you're going to be at the top of the rankings, the most number of users. But it was a tiny market back then. Speaker 2 23:31 It is kind of the guts to be an early adopter or an early entrant into a market. Right. Cause that's the place where you can have that staying power and brand recognition and stuff that just comes with time. Speaker 1 23:43 Yeah. I mean, in some ways I got in wordpress by being one of the earlier ones and I was able to revamp it and pushed to the top of the rankings. Now the competitors, they're all up against me. You know, that is still a tiny market and I'll be the first to tell you that is the as niche as they get. But within that there, you know, I am selling to wordpress users. The directory itself is very niche, but now I have 30 some odd thousand people on an email list. Now I can promote something that they would want that also could be used on their sites. That isn't necessarily a directory. Yup. So a niche market can still lead you to bigger things even if it's not the same market. Like it's an adjacent market. Yeah. So I mean I just feel like there was a lot of nuance that was left out of that discussion and it just made, made it sound like, oh, it's all about the size of the market. And if it's big enough then you're fine. And the bigger the better. And you should always go for the big stuff. And I'm like, it's not about size, man. I almost think it's Speaker 2 24:43 the opposite in a lot of respects, right? Like you can imagine having accounting software, right? Uh, the, the mountain of competition you'd be up against is amazing, you know, and in every conceivable angle that you can, you can come up with, there's a competitor that is doing a part of, you know, this market. Um, I think as you get down into a niched market of some kind, then all of that becomes easier. They're the decision of like, who are we are and what do we want to be and who do we want to cater towards? All becomes like a lot easier because you're in this next year in logistics software for cargo ships, right? Like that's, you know, there you go. Those are your customers, you know, where they hang out, you know, what they talk about, all this kind of stuff. So I think a certain amount of limitation to the scope of who your customers could be and what they do with your businesses, uh, Speaker 1 25:41 is it makes things easier. I guess for you. Yeah. I mean that's kind of also alludes to the episode where we talked about Excel and the sat great. Sas Replacement of Excel. Hmm. Those are all niches within, uh, various specific markets. So, you know, if you're doing real estate and you're doing tracking of your expenses, there's a SAS that does that. And all that really does is improve upon the experience. But while excel was the big tool that you could use for that, the niche now gives you just a better, uh, a better experience at the, at an entering those expenses, managing the things easier, access to the reports, et Cetera, et cetera. You know, that just because that market isn't necessarily, you know, you, I don't know how to look at that right there. So is that market big or is that market small? I think you could actually make an argument either way, right? You're talking about all sell users in real estate, that could be huge, but how many of them are doing this specific thing within real estate? Is that small? So, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of nuance here. There's a lot of nuance. Speaker 2 26:47 Yeah. Yep, Yep. It reminds me of the, I think, uh, Mike and rob did a, uh, absolute thinking is always wrong episode recently, which is like a, a beautiful, like play on words. But I mean, yeah, it'll, it is all nuance, right. To say, you know, a big market or a small market is bad, is never right. Uh, and there's like, yeah, the fine details of, of any of those discussions probably. Speaker 1 27:12 Yeah. And you know, when cornered on specific things, you know, Justin was saying on Twitter, Oh yeah, well that, that might be true and whatever, but that's not the point that he was making or whatever. So, I mean, it just seemed like he wanted to go for this big article in this big point and then was admitted all of these other things in here with, which seems to me like the whole thing is very nuanced and you can't really sort of make, make the, the generalizations that, uh, were being made there and have it really stick. So there's, there's a lot of opportunity out there. And I think awareness of the trends, awareness of, you know, how painful that thing is for the people in that niche. I mean this is what killed level with Derek, right? He had what he thought was an insanely large niche, but low willingness to pay for everybody. Speaker 1 28:01 In fact, no willingness to pay really. And all of a sudden he's like, Oh shit, I don't really have an opportunity on my hands here. So size, size didn't really fix that. Yup, Yup. Yeah. So I think you've, to kind of look at it holistically, you've got to say, do I have enough people here that I can make a business out of this? And I don't think that has to be like mega huge, but you gotta have a way to reach them and you've got to note that that thing that you're trying to reach is super painful so that they have a high willingness to pay and that there's gotta be some kind of a trend. Like it's got to be stable. Like for the example with more aware, I mean it's sure as hell isn't like there's a massive explosion of countertop installers. I'm sure it goes with the housing market. Speaker 1 28:44 As the housing market goes up, then you're going to see more people trying to do that sort of stuff. And as the housing market crashes, like it did in 2008, then business dries up. But you know, I mean overall countertop installers are pretty much going to be here till the end of houses. This is not going away. Right. But with something like with slack or zoom, I mean they're going to be around as long as we use that communication medium, but then when it no longer suits us, we're going to move on to something else. So do they have an infinite shelf life? I'll bet it's not as big as countertop software. Yeah, I will definitely bet you on that one. Speaker 2 29:22 Yup. Yup. You know, something else that, that, uh, I think about as we kind of like wrap this thing up is the idea of like, uh, product market, business founder fit, uh, to say like, what kind of business do you want and do you want to run a is do you want it just to be you? And like, uh, you know, the company of one idea, um, where it's just you and a couple of freelancers and you run a $20,000 a month business and you're happy as a pig in shit that is definitely for some people. Or are you, you know, one of these feel that says, I'm going to go take on the world and raise a whole shit ton of money and B, you know, slack or stripe, um, or something in between or I don't know. And so I think that's part of it is like the product and the opportunity in the market and are those two things consistent with what you want to do, I think is like the part of that maybe. Speaker 1 30:19 Right. And maybe that changes over time. So there's the example of Jason Cohen or even Rob Walling, right? Both of them did smaller things earlier. They had some success and then after that success that just primed them to say, well, if I can do that, what else can I do? Can I go bigger? What happens if I could go bigger? What does that look like? How do I make that work? And it wasn't just a, you know, part of it was proving something to themselves. Part of it was a learning experience. Part of it. What just, I just wanted to try this and see what happens. You know, they were curious. They were explorers. They, they just had this itch to scratch. They have to create. Right? Why did rob go on to build tiny Steve? Because you know, he's not just going to sit idle. He's got to do something else. And that was the next logical thing to go do there. So maybe your content to just run businesses. I think I would be content to just run a good business for the next 10 20 years. I would be okay with that. I don't need to be super big. That's consistent with my goals and my personality and my families. Um, intention. So yeah, I mean you have to look at all of it. You've got to look at all of it and either works or doesn't. Speaker 2 31:32 Yup. Yup. And I think a fair thing to think about is that the view from where you are now is going to be different than when you get there. What the view looks like. So to think, Dave, and I totally agree that in a lot of ways I'm content having a successful growing whatever company. Uh, but then, you know, we had this opportunity, like we cast those to say, Yup, we're a growing successful company. If we did this thing and take an investment and become part of an accelerator in tiny seed, what could that mean in the, the pressure and the excitement and the opportunity that it affords a, it definitely changes. I never in a million years would have done this a year and a half ago right after we got started. But now that the business is relatively stable and growing and kind of predictable, the, the daunting, this, I don't know if that's a word, it's not as daunting. It's not as daunting or weird to think like, Oh hey, we're going to do this. It's going to be really different than I ever could have imagined I would want to do. But it feels really natural to me now. Um, so I think that like when you get to a point where something new Speaker 1 32:40 is possible and realistic, um, it shouldn't seem like that big of a step if you got there like in a natural way, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So we'd like to know from all of you, what are your thoughts on what makes a successful market? Are we totally off base? Did we miss something super important? Let us know. Send us an email podcast@roguestartups.com. We'd love to hear from you on that. And as always, our one ask if you felt that this episode was valuable. And it would help somebody else. Please share it with them. Until next week, Speaker 0 33:13 thanks for listening to another episode of rogue startups. If you haven't already, head over to iTunes and leave a rating and review for the show for show notes from each episode and a few extra resources to help you along your journey. Head over to rogue startups.com to learn more.