RS349: Ranking In ChatGPT with Devesh Khanal

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:07] Speaker B: How do you get your brand to show up at the top of Chat, GBT or cloud or Perplexity when your best customers are searching for a solution that you provide? This is the question. This is the biggest arbitrage in digital marketing maybe ever, because we have uncharted territory, right? It's Facebook ads of 2012, probably right on steroids because the entire world is moving to using LLMs like ChatGPT and Claude and Perplexity. But the question is, how do you get your brand to show up when people ask for, hey, how do I do this thing? Or what's the best of this thing? Devesh from Grow and Convert is on today to talk about exactly how to do that, because he's been running probably the premier content marketing agency in the SaaS world for the last 10 years and literally knows everything there is to know about digital marketing and content and how to get attention and conversion for your brand. And now he's applying that to AI SEO. And I think he's kind of cracked the code on what you should do and what you shouldn't do to get your brand to show up in ChatGPT when your customers are searching for your solution. Here's Devesh from Grow and Convert talking all about AI SEO. I guess the first place I want to start is our traffic is down pretty significantly. And you and I were on a call earlier this week talking about your new AI writer called Wave and you were surprised by that. Our Traffic's down like 50% versus two years ago. Is that not what you see with a lot of brands who've invested heavily in content marketing and SEO? [00:01:44] Speaker A: No, no can be true of brands that invest a lot in content marketing. It's not what we see with our clients. And that's what I was telling you in that conversation. [00:01:55] Speaker B: Yep. Why? [00:01:56] Speaker A: Because I, I'm pretty sure I haven't done some like, careful quantitative analysis of this. It's because for our clients, we do bottom of funnel SEO. And I can explain what that is. And, and, well, I need to explain what that is for this to make sense. So, yeah, we rank for. So we have this methodology that we've had for six to eight years. I forget Pain point SEO is what we call it. And the crux of it is that we've been telling people from before LLM World happened, before Chachi BT was released, rank for and go after SEO keywords that are at the bottom of your funnel, as defined as things that people Google when they're looking for your product or service, as opposed to what? As opposed to top of funnel queries that are more just informational. So a classic example, for example grow and convert is a. Actually for you in the podcasting world, that would be the difference between in your case, something around podcasting software. Podcast hosting software would be a bottom of funnel query versus podcasting tips and the latter. A ton of B2B companies produce that non stop. You see it all over LinkedIn, Twitter, the stuff that they produce. If you're on their email list, they'll send you that like 10 tips for skyrocketing your podcast in 2025. Right. It's like that's stand standard. It's standard content marketing. [00:03:28] Speaker B: Guilty. Guilty. [00:03:29] Speaker A: Yeah, right. That was a bad idea. We've argued and will continue to argue before ChatGPT. Before ChatGPT. [00:03:37] Speaker B: Why? [00:03:38] Speaker A: Because the the act of reading this post on 10 podcasting tips on 2025 doesn't indicate they're looking or ready for podcast hosting software today. So the argument for that post that a content marketer or the writer or whoever suggested that post or you. Right. If you were defending that post, Davis, there's a reason why I did it. You'd say, you'd say look like it's on topic. My audience, like our target customer is people with podcasts. And so those are the people who would read a podcasting tips thing. That's true. It's not nonsense. It's not like tips on you know, dog training or something completely off topic. But when you sit and measure the conversion rate, which we have done and continue to do across, I think by now maybe thousands of of top like top five SEO rankings across, I don't know, many clients, dollars of 60, 80 clients, 100 clients over the past many years. Those posts convert to a product action, not convert to like some download an ebook stuff like to an actual like free trial startup, whatever. They convert to those at a dismal rate. We're talking something like.05%, 0.1% versus if you ranked Castos. Castos. Castos, yep. For podcast hosting software I would, you know, typical grow and convert client rates. Those would convert to your product CTA, free trial, demo, whatever, at anywhere from 1% to 3% plus. We have seen single articles convert at like double digit percentages. That's rare. [00:05:31] Speaker B: That's rare. [00:05:33] Speaker A: But Even half a percent conversion rate is multiple like 10x plus what is typical of top of funnel stuff. So. So anyway, that was a background to answer your question of why have we not seen the traffic decrease. Now it turns out when we developed Pain Point SEO and did that in a SEO Google only world way. Like years before ChatGPT. Right. And that's the argument is that the conversion rate to actual product, business and leads is much higher. That continues to be true today. This is serendipity in my opinion. It turns out like, so chat GBD is released, everyone is stressing in our field, including us, like what do we do now? Like what's going on? How many people are going to move to chat GPT? And then the big thing is, oh, I'm going to use the word chatgpt as a substitute for just LLMs. Because actually the reality from our surveys is that that's like 80, maybe 90% of when people say LLMs that like people use. The Worry is, well ChatGPT, you don't, it doesn't link to stuff. Google pre AI, pre AI overview. The like sort of understood exchange. The unsaid thing of Google was you get to just in some ways steal content that the entire world produces in exchange for sending us traffic for producing that content. That's, that was the unwritten agreement that all of us had with Google. Not all us, but also like the New York Times, like, like, you know, like organization. So the Google gets to Reddit. Yeah, right. So Google lives. If nobody in the Internet produced content, Google doesn't exist. So they live off of other people's content. But they got to do that for 30 years or 20 years or whatever because they're sending you traffic. And then ChatGPT was like, we're going to read your content. We will answer people's questions based on the things you've said. And then we're not going to actually send you traffic. Right, right. And that was like the sort of the uproar. Now it turns out that is far more true. And that's the answer to your question for top of funnel queries than bottom. And the answer is very obvious when you think about it. When somebody asks ChatGPT for a bottom of funnel query, which again I'm defining as product interest, buying interest in a product, service, whatever. By definition that user's intent is to get to product sites. So what does ChatGPT ChatGPT do? It understands the user's intent and then it sends them to those brands. How does it do that? It can either cite stuff and actually link it or it just literally lists brands. So for us, what when we say we haven't seen that decrease because we're producing primarily bottom of funnel, almost exclusively bottom of funnel content for all of Our clients grow and convert clients. And so the LLM rankings that we're looking at are for similar topics. And so for those topics, ChatGPT is being asked things like what is the best podcast hosting software? And so then if we are and, and we have articles and we, you and I can talk about this right now. But we have strong data and we're not the only ones. Other people have that data suggesting there is a heavy correlation between ranking on Google and getting cited by ChatGPT or mentioned by ChatGPT. And there's also a qualitative reason for that. It literally Googles things, or in ChatGPT's case, maybe Bing Bings things. And so then it lists, you know, if we're ranking on Google, it increases the chances of when somebody asks a bottom of funnel query. That's the same topic on ChatGPT. It lists our clients product or article. And so we preserve more traffic. Then if you did podcasting tips, I urge any reader to just test this. You go on a chatgpt and ask like, hey, I'm starting a podcast. What are some, you know, tips to get started? I'm trying to grow my podcast. What are some tips to grow? It's not going to cite anyone. It's just going to answer your question. And you don't have to go to any other website. So if that's where you were getting your traffic from. Yes, you're not going to get that from ChatGPT. [00:09:47] Speaker B: Okay, so I want to give context as to why we did it and maybe push back a little bit. But to get your perspective, we did it because the conventional wisdom was you have kind of bottom of the funnel and then you want to kind of like surround, right? It's like HubSpot, right? Surround sound. Like you want to surround the topic as much as possible with every possible thing that somebody could ask about podcasting. In our case, and that includes really high top of funnel, low buyer intent shit like podcast microphones and best podcasts. That's even like the consumer of a podcast, not the creator of one, that is one is like, okay, we have, we have all the bottom of funnel stuff. Then we go, okay, we wrote that, now we want to write more stuff. Maybe that's the error is like, don't just write more stuff, but do things off page or whatever to rank for those bottom of funnel. And so we went kind of up the funnel because we already did the bottom of funnel stuff. Like, is that were we wrong? Were we wrong or no, no, no. [00:10:49] Speaker A: So we in our pain Point SEO article, we have this kind of reverse funnel diagram and we say like start at the bottom like the classic marketing funnel actually not reverse. That's the direction it goes. Reverse pyramid. And we say you work from the bottom of funnel up. And so if you truly feel like you've exhausted and produced pieces and, and ideally have the rankings for bottom of funnel terms, then yes, you work your way up then, then I would argue, yeah, it sucks that you lost that traffic from the top of funnel stuff. If you were to. Actually that's not that hard. If you look in GA and see which pieces lost the most traffic, you can validate what I'm claiming without having looked at your ga. Right. So I'm sort of making the claim to tell you. [00:11:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:11:40] Speaker A: If that's true, that like most of the traffic losses from these top of funnel queries or more of it is from top of funnel queries, then like I would say, yeah, I mean you're right and it sucks. I'm sorry, like, but Chat GPT is going to eat all of that. And if it's not, Google AI overview is also eating all of that. And then now Google's talking about AI mode where you just, it's like its version of ChatGPT where the listings are even more, the organics positions are even more deprecated behind clicks that you'd have to get to be like, show me the actual organic listings behind this. And so that's just the way the world is moving and you're going to lose that and that sucks. But like my, my sort of thing I would say to make you feel better is, but the bottom of funnel stuff is still there. Like, like one thing that I have thought from the beginning of this that I, I keep needing to like tell people is the existence of ChatGPT, AI, Google AI overview, AI mode that's coming in Google. Yes, it is a shock to the marketing system especially for people that relied on Google primarily. But, but remember the demand from people and businesses for products and software is not going away. [00:12:51] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Just where they're consuming information differently. [00:12:55] Speaker A: Yes. They're like they're going to need, they're going to want to buy things at the same rate. ChatGPT doesn't change that. The like desire for software, the desire for this, that and the other. So it, they're going to be researching what software is best somehow some way. And so you got to figure that out. And I would argue like probably they're still searching on the Internet, they're going to still search on Google. And Google is going to kind of give a summary. They're going to search on ChatGPT and it's going to give its recommendations. So the huge part of the game is figure out how to get on those. [00:13:27] Speaker B: It's almost like you're a podcast host and you knew that we were going to segue into, into this next. So. Okay. Before we move on though, I want to talk about the kind of pyramid, inverted pyramid that you have. And at that bottom of funnel, there are a few different types, right? There's like jobs to be done, there's comparisons, there's category posts, there's like listicles. Can you just briefly talk about like at the bottom of the funnel, what types of things do we need to think about writing? And then I want to ask how should we think about ranking differently in AI or LLMs versus Google? But, but let's start with like, what does that bottom of the pyramid look like? [00:14:05] Speaker A: Yeah, so the bottom of the funnel so that you're, you're referring to these three buckets of our pain point SEO methodology. So pain point SEO, that term we came up with to contrast it with like traffic chasing SEO, that our argument is actually for, especially for B2B companies. We do B2B and B2C in terms of our clients, but it's heavily skewed to B2B just historically. That's also who does invest in this kind of content more, especially for B2B, a lot of your customers are somewhat experienced, like probably, I would say for Kastos, you would probably argue that your best customers are not total podcast newbies. Is that right? [00:14:48] Speaker B: 100%. Yep. [00:14:49] Speaker A: That's true of almost any B2B client we've talked to because they're always like, oh, the best customers are the ones that use like the like higher plan and stick around longer. And those are the ones that are like doing whatever it is in a serious way. They're not just like testing in the waters or whatever. So for those customers, they're not newbies by definition. Let's move off of Castos to really highlight this as an example. A typical B2B SaaS thing would be like, you know, I don't know, like HR software. And you ask some HR software thing like, who's your ideal customer? Almost nobody says the tiniest companies. It's always like they don't even have HR department. So they're going to be like, oh, like let's leave aside like enterprise for a second. Although it's even more true of enterprise. Even if it's like, oh, like mid size, you know, 50 person employees up to like 500 or something like that. Okay, great. And then who are you selling into? Head of hr. That head of HR person. Do, do they need an article that is, you know, 10 trends in HR in 2025? They're, they're, they've been in HR for 10 to 20 years. They're more of an expert than you are. They're definitely more of an expert than the freelance writer off of UPWORK that you're hiring to produce some 10 tips of HR in 20. Right. And yet companies still do that. And so in that case, our argument is that top of funnel stuff isn't their pain point. So what is their pain point? Their pain point is they want to actually research HR software when they're in the market for it. So that's the term pain point SEO. So now largely we use it as kind of a synonym for just ranking for keywords that actually convert for your company for your topic. So three, we have since divided it into three subcategories of stuff that converts. And in those subcategories, number one is category keywords. We call it that. These are all our names, by the way. So category keywords, those we define as just like the keywords that are the most obvious. This is your product category. They're literally looking for something like that. In your case podcast hosting software, in the other case HR software, for example. Now there's all, there's actually it's more than just one keyword per company. There's going to be a bunch of them. So there's all these like niches. So you can say, you know, let's take like accounting software. It can be accounting software for small business, entrepreneur accounting software. Then there can be like things around features, HR software that integrates with QuickBooks or something like this, podcast software that does blah, blah, blah. So there's like actually often layers to this then. So the second category is comparison and alternatives. We put that schematically and you can go, you can Google pain point SEO to literally read the article and see this. But we put that schematically right at the bottom of funnel next to category keywords because it also is equally high intent and that's people comparing two alternatives. You know, so it would be like, for accounting software, It'd be like QuickBooks vs 0 vs FreshBooks or something like that. Or so vs is one kind of classic one. The other One is alternatives, QuickBooks alternatives. If you're like an up and coming, you know, Accounting software, you'd want to go after that because the intent is ridiculously high. They're literally. They know what the other players in the space are, and they're literally looking for alternatives like, you want to be there. And by the way, that's our argument of starting here first. But even if you were to argue back no, Davish, like podcast tips, that's what you know. Podcast growth tips, for example, is what, like the ideal Castos customer is looking for, blah, blah. Fine. I'm not saying the conversion rate from that is zero. You could for sure get conversions from it. But which should you do first? That or you know, your competitor's name alternatives, if that has search volume, like, obviously the other one has a much higher conversion rate, and we have the data to back that up, like over and over again. And so that's that. And then the third bucket is what we call jobs to be done. And in the actual schematic, we give it a larger piece of the pie because there's a lot more of these and jobs to be done. We define as how to style keywords where the person's not literally googling for software tools, blah, blah, blah, but they're googling for to solve a problem, a pain point, and pain point SEO, where your product or service is a very convenient, cheap, or just better way to solve that problem. So in this case, it would be like, I don't know, you could, you could come up with one for Castos. I don't know Castos that well, but something that Castos does really well and a problem it solves, you would say, like how to do X for example, for grow and convert. Let's take, let's. Let's switch it to a B2B service, right? Whereas a content marketing agency, the category I'll do all three category keyword would be content marketing agency, obviously. And then there's all these subcategories. B2B Content Marketing Agency, Content Marketing Agency for SaaS, all that comparison alternatives. Like a really big agency that's been around for a million years is Brafton. In our space, we don't do this because in our space, just from a human perspective, it's a little bit considered kind of like uncouth. Like, you don't really do that with your fellow agencies. You try to be friends with them. So there's more like a cultural reason. But it would be like Brafton alternatives. That's obvious. How two jobs to be done is the majority of what we've done, and that is things like Measuring conversions from content, how to measure conversions to content. B2B lead generation SEO. They're not saying SEO agency, they're just trying to research how do I generate leads from SEO. That's literally a piece like we're like working on this. That was, that was top of mind for me, me things like that. So that's pain point SEO. And basically we can bucket every single high converting piece into one of those categories as. And all of this is as opposed to top of funnel. Now I'm saying this really neatly. That line between what's a how to jobs to be done and top of funnel can sometimes get blurry. And you have to kind of test, you know, these jobs to be done, converted well or versus those others didn't. But a top of funnel would be again like those tips type stuff where you're like, like is somebody googling this? Like what percentage of people really are in the market for this is probably not high. And it's all a prioritization game. Like just go after the ones that are obviously higher converting. So that, that's the pain point SEO answer and then you want to talk about how this translates to the LLM world. [00:21:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's say a lot of our listeners are like, cool, I've done the bottom of funnel. I've done the bottom of funnel. I've reached a point of like I feel like I've done what I can. [00:21:34] Speaker A: There all my extremely uncommon like of all the companies like on our email list, ones that reach out to us leads like they all think they've done it well. And then we actually look and we can literally go to AHREFS and be like these are obvious bottom of funnel keywords that like within talking to you for 15 minutes we can find and we can screen share it on a call. Be like you're nowhere to be found. [00:21:57] Speaker B: Yeah, okay, okay. I want to come back to that. But okay, so, so say they've done it. As we're, as we're developing this bottom funnel content in one of these kind of categories, jobs to be done or comparisons. How do you think about writing or even not writing like off page or whatever things that we need to do to get these to rank in LLM so our brand is mentioned or cited or linked to or whatever. [00:22:28] Speaker A: Yeah, great question. We don't do a lot of what you're calling this kind of like additional top of funnel content to support the ranking of bottom of funnel content. But maybe that's a bit of an aside to directly answer your question. We're seeing 60 to 80% visibility in AI when you put the exact same Google query into ChatGPT. Like when you're ranking on Google on the first page, when you seeing 60 to 80% of the time, chatgpt mention our client's brand, doing nothing else, just working our normal process. So let me break that down and, and explain why. And there is, I can send it to you if you want to put in the show notes. But there's articles we've written where we like go over the specific data and show studies on our site. So that what I'm talking about is a bit artificial in that the way we tested for that 60 to 80% is we took the exact Google query, like podcast hosting software, and just typed it into ChatGPT. Obviously real users are not going to do that. Our argument is, but you don't know what real users are going to type. So you can just, if you want to turn it into an actual prompt, type sentence, go ahead. But when we just put the exact query in in the meantime, that was our way of symbolically representing when that topic comes up in a conversation. How it actually comes up in a conversation is much more nuanced. And that's kind of a separate thing that I do want to talk about. And we have another article on that level of detail. And that detail in a conversation with LLMs we think has some consequences to your content strategy. But at first blush, what we're seeing is there is tremendous overlap doing nothing else but traditional SEO. There's tremendous overlap of when you rank in the top 10 positions, LLM's also mentioning you for that exact same topic or query. And then when we reduced it to keywords for clients where we're ranking in the top three positions, that those numbers went up. So I think it was like top 10. And again, I can link to the article. Top 10 was something like 60 to 70% between chatgpt and perplexity visibility. And when we looked at articles when we're ranking in the top three spots of Google, it was like 70 to 80% of the time ChatGPT and perplexity. We showed up for that. So the strict answer to your question is we ourselves are do have done nothing else. We're doing nothing else off site now from a strategy perspective, like so, first of all, I alluded to this before. Why do you think that that's working? Because we have, that is providing evidence and these companies have kind of indicated they're supplementing a lot of their answers when an LLM Needs to like do this natural language generation. Answer your query or prompt with Google perplexity. Actually Google's I think and then in addition to its own indexing of the web and ChatGPT, you know, they're a little bit cagey about exactly what they're using. Obviously ChatGPT has Microsoft as a heavy investor, so they're probably using Bing. But by the way, when you say Bing, anytime we're ranking on Google, we're almost always ranking on Bing. So just consider. Yeah, yeah, so like one we know qualitatively they do supplement that. Second, you can test it that for a lot of these like pure informational top of fennel queries. If you ask ChatGPT, you know, give me a bio of Abraham Lincoln, it probably is not going to Google anything because it has all that in its training data. But if you ask it, you know what, what podcast hosting software are people using today? Even if you don't click the web search button at the bottom where you entered your prompt, There are so many prompts. If you just pay attention to when you're using ChatGPT, when you start asking it for something that like any human would know from logic, you kind of need to know what's going on in the world today. It will say searching the web and it starts showing you the little websites and the queries that it puts out. Right. And so it's doing that and argument is like most of the time, like for most of you guys with B2B software that's listening or whatever, it's going to probably need to do that. It may not always. I'm not saying it will always. If you ask like, you know, like what are some CRMs I should use? It probably can just like mention Salesforce and Zoho and whatever. Just like off the top, right? [00:26:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:01] Speaker A: And so that's that. That, that's kind of the functional reason why we are can explain why our client data has such an overlap and why we can justify not having to do this offsite type stuff. We then argue and, and we've also published this. We argue that what we have seen online being touted as like LLM optimization people called LLM O or GEO Generative Engine Optimization to try to get close to SEO. There's like a bunch of these acronyms. They're kind of cheesy people. When we see like tips that people are putting out there, we see things like have an LLMs TXT file on your website just like robots Txt to help them index it. We have not published this, but we have some insider info from someone on our team that's done these tests that it does not seem to make any difference having it or not in terms of LLM like traffic. There's also, I'm pretty sure, don't hold me to this, someone's going to listen to this podcast like six months from now when this statement is wrong and like online. But I'm pretty sure as of today, OpenAI, Anthropic and all have not confirmed that them crawling the web actually uses LLMs. Txt. It was from my understanding a hypothesis or a actually suggested idea from some developer founder guy who said like it would be nice if we did this and taught LLM how to read our site. And then everyone just like caught on to it or whatever. And I think Anthropic also said something like yeah, that would be nice or whatever. And everyone was like they're using it. And I don't think there actually are. And again, some tests from someone on our team have suggested that it's not effective or it's not doing anything. [00:28:51] Speaker B: And then just as an aside. So I think it's kind of silly to think like they've crawled the entire web, they're doing it every day and every month. To think that some we, we have. [00:29:01] Speaker A: One just because like a little guide post for them. Because they don't know, right? [00:29:05] Speaker B: To think that some three page document is going to tell them everything about our brand when they know everything about everything is. I mean, whatever. We have one, it's a WordPress plugin. It takes two seconds. [00:29:14] Speaker A: Like, yeah, in particular, in particular the whole underlying technology and what makes it innovative is that it understands natural language at like a human or near human level. So like why do you then need to guide that thing? [00:29:28] Speaker B: Right? [00:29:29] Speaker A: This is how our site works. You're like literally the technology is that it can understand it like a human. Yeah, but then those are like some on page stuff. And then we've also heard some kooky on page stuff, including from some of our clients. I hope they're not listening of like, you should change the H1s on your content to questions because LLMs like questions or you should have questions content that's like Q and a. Because LLMs like that again, you're like literally the whole reason the technology has taken over the world is because it understands natural language at an insane level and can like pass the LSAT better than like law students or whatever. Right. Like, haven't you seen those things? So but then the big piece of off Page advice we've seen over and over again online that we're pushing back on is you got to get cited by other people that your strategy should be like, get on Reddit. The reason those, those posts on like LinkedIn and all say that is they'll be, do some analysis. They'll be like, we checked 3,000 prompts and the number one cited source is Reddit and number two is Wikipedia. And so those are the number one cited sources. And so you should, you got to get on Reddit. Here's our objection to that. We are not objecting to the facts 100% chatgpt and all cite Reddit non stop. We know they OpenAI literally has a partnership with Reddit. I'll leave aside my personal commentary that like, and I'm gonna piss off some Redditors here if they're listening to your thing. When is it that like this forum that a bunch of people that like some small segment of society participates in a large segment probably reads Reddit, but a very small segment posts regularly on Reddit. Right? And all of a sudden now they're like dictating how the, like the search engine of the future, like talks about information of the world is like kind of funny to me. But anyway, we are not objecting that they actually cite Reddit, but what we're objecting to is what is this Reddit strategy that they're claiming you need to have? What is that strategy? How do you do it? They'll just be like, see? So you got to get on Reddit. Okay, how do I get on Reddit? Have you tried to market on Reddit? We have. Back in the days before we did Pain Point SEO, we tried to use community content promotion in the early, early days many years ago for our content. Do you know how hard it is to market a product on Reddit? Redditors are brutal. So what are you gonna do? You're gonna go and like comment on stuff, be like, oh, have you heard about Kastos? And like, you can do that a couple times. And then even if you do that successfully and they don't like trash you, then what do you, how long are you doing that for? What are you doing next week? What are you doing next month? And so we think actually controlling the narrative with content on your own site is more effective and it's more long term. And it turns out these LLMs are literally googling things. So they're going to ingest that content anyways. [00:32:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think the Reddit thing is interesting. So I'll share what we do on Reddit. So first of all we have our own subreddit. I think that's. [00:32:32] Speaker A: Oh that's really interesting. [00:32:34] Speaker B: Everyone should have that and we publish. Not as often as we should just because I'm lazy. We publish and we want to publish all of our bottom of funnel content there just like we do and should LinkedIn articles like I think that's like duh, right? Like probably not going to hurt, maybe not going to do a whole lot. We from a business perspective view Reddit as the best community out there. Like we've had our own circle and discord and all this kind of stuff and it's just, it's so hard and it's so hard to spin up and get like critical mass. But Reddit, it's a great community and there's a bunch of people there already. So like as opposed to a Facebook interesting. [00:33:09] Speaker A: I don't think that's. Duh. I have not heard of a brand creating their own subreddit and, and, and maybe that's common and I'm just the one with my head under a rock. But like that's actually really interesting. [00:33:19] Speaker B: Yeah, so, so we do a bit of that. The thing that is a little. So I had Lars Lofgren on. I don't do you know Lars, like SEO Kai. The thing that is a little gray hat that I am considering is this kind of idea of spinning up alternative avatars on Reddit and you could imagine having just for our brand if you have a half a dozen of them that get karma and all this is that they're promoting you and participating in conversations in the broader community kind of for you. But not as me. I have a Reddit account as Craig from Kastos and it's very clear like I'm always disclosing that but the kind of gray hat is like what if you have these other guys who aren't necessarily you and they go up and they. I mean the way I look at it is like if again like maybe we haven't done all the on page stuff that we should of covering our bottom of funnel content. That seems to be a tangible off page approach to getting your brand mentioned more in like you said the place. Sure enough that Google Results and the LLMs are searching for information about stuff. So I think that's kind of like the 201 version and we're just dabbling in it right now. [00:34:39] Speaker A: That's what I would do. And we put that in our. We call it our post about our current LLM Optimization views we call Pain point LLM. Oh, to like sort of nod back to our Pain point SEO. And I think, I believe, I say in there, like go for it. Like if you want to do some of that, that's fine. I haven't heard of a brand creating their own subreddit. That's actually really interesting. Maybe grow and convert should do that. But. And if you want to do gray hat stuff, like, that's up to you, right? Like there's been gray hat everywhere, that's fine. But what I, what we argue is we have if you don't want to do that, if it doesn't make sense to create your own subreddit, if you don't have the resources, time, interest to maintain that and if you, you know, have some objections to the gray hat stuff, which is totally fine, like that's, that's your taste, that's your decision. We found it doesn't seem to be necessary that you, if you can nail. [00:35:33] Speaker B: The bottom of funnel stuff. [00:35:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that if you get there. So now let me add one layer. Benji has a post about why AI search is very different. That I think is another important layer and that's kind of getting into some of what you talked about in mid funnel. AI searches are much more nuanced, detailed and specific than Google. Specifically we have asked leads that have said I heard about grow and convert on ChatGPT. We've asked them, can you show us the chat? One literally stopped the conversation screen, shared his chat and the other one sent us the transcript. The first one, he had his own agency and he, and he wanted to like delegate it and like get himself away from the business. And so we had this long conversation with Chat GPT about doing that one component of which it was like, and what do you do? And he's like, I do marketing and content. And it was like, well, you should probably delegate that. And then at some point it recommended grow and convert. And so there's all this nuance. Google doesn't have any of that nuance. And so Google is, is you're just typing like content agency. You know, that's what he would be doing. He'd be like, oh, I need a content agency. Now how does that affect content strategy? In the prior1 in LLMs, it's going to recommend highly specific. It's going to want to recommend highly specific solutions to the details of what it knows about you, but what you've told it. So in that second chat, yeah, the female founder, that was our client, she said specifically, like, I am obsessed with lead, I had this outbound strategy. I'm stopping the outbound strategy. I need someone who can do inbound that is obsessed with lead generation. Now how? And she told us, she said grow. It just kept recommending grow and convert. And I was like, I got to figure out who these guys are. And also like how do I get recommended by LLMs to this amount? We haven't done any LLM strategy for ourselves. None. Zero. But what have we done? We've published content from, you know, the beginning of our existence about how Grow and convert is focused on content for lead generation. Everything I explained about Pain point SEO earlier on this recording as well is like SEO for lead generation. We're obsessed with lead generation. Everything we say is like this is content that doesn't just produce traffic, it's lead generation. We've leaned hard into that. We have a bunch of case studies into that that naturally means that it. When it knows that it's like oh you want lead generation? Let me recommend grow and convert. [00:38:02] Speaker B: And that's just positioning, right? [00:38:03] Speaker A: Like yes, positioning and providing detail around that positioning. And so it's kind of that jobs to be done mid funnel section of pain point SEO, if you want to translate it to that is like figuring out what are the pain points that my ideal customers search for. So we lean into that. Our customer is the one that's like I've actually tried content marketing before. We hired agencies. We have all this post, we have all this traffic and when I cannot convince myself in the data that it's leading to good amount of business, then they come to us. And so getting that right for Castos for example, it would be like what is your differentiator relative to all the other solutions to host your podcast? What is bad about them? Why do people choose Kastos and then producing content piece after content piece that goes after that, dissects it and discusses it in different angles and absolutely, Craig, many of those could be non SEO based or non. Like they don't target some bottom of funnel keyword that has volume on ahrefs or whatever. Right. That it could just be like we have a ton of content that's just not SEO based. It's just like a case study or whatever and we release it to our email list or we've produced it long ago. But if ChatGPT is crawling your site, it's going to see that. [00:39:10] Speaker B: Well yeah, and that's, that's the like the, the breadth of context that the LLMs have that like maybe even Google or probably Google doesn't have or didn't use. Right. It's like you're positioning around like traffic for leads. Again, serendipitous maybe like you, you got lucky that you were so opinionated about that because now in these longer chat conversations, it's coming around and recommending you more than Google ever would have problems. [00:39:37] Speaker A: Saying, ascribing that to luck. A lot of people, people in marketing love to, like, act like they're Nostradamus. They're like, yeah, yeah, I've been saying it for a long time. Like, I, I knew this coming. No, we had no idea ChatGPT was coming. We had no idea how it was going to work. We were also worried it was going to eat everyone's lunch and we're like, oh, like, turns out content is actually really necessary for ChatGPT. Oh, it turns out specific pain point stuff is really effective. That's good news. [00:40:03] Speaker B: So I'm going to, I think the last question I had and then I want to ask you just about AI in general. The last question I'd sent you before is like, if you don't rank in Google, can you rank in LLMs? And if so, like, what are you, what are you doing to see that? Yeah, I guess the answer is no. [00:40:21] Speaker A: No, I, I think the answer is yes. And, and there's some nuance here. What we're seeing is both Google AI overviews and in ChatGPT, it'll mention a few brands, depending on the query that you're just like, what, like this, they're not ranking or doing whatever. So when I say when our clients have ranked, there's a correlation, it's a correlation and it's not 100%. And so absolutely there's many times where there's. It mentions these specific brands. On top of that, what I was just saying about specificity is like your avenue in. So if you have very specific pain points that, if you have very specific pain points that you go after, like you have a niche, you, you have a specific positioning, you should. That's a way for, if somebody has a conversation with AN LLM like ChatGpt, that where they reveal that they have those pain points and you have produced content that says that your brand is positioned in that way, like you should be in a good spot. [00:41:32] Speaker B: It's correlation. It's not like 100%. If you rank in Google, you rank in LLMs. [00:41:37] Speaker A: Yeah, and the other point is going back to what I was saying about specificity, that's often a way in. So if you've produced A bunch of content saying like, hey, for this particular set of problems or whatever, we really shine. Here are features that show and prove that we can solve those problems really well. Then when people are having these highly specific conversations with ChatGPT, or even if the conversation isn't specific, in one of the clients I mentioned that shared her chat with us, I could tell in the chat, even though her prompt was really like simple, it was actually short about asking for a content agency, I could see in its answer, it was like, because your business did this and you used to rely on this outbound. I was like, oh, it knows all that stuff. [00:42:21] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:42:22] Speaker A: And ChatGPT says it's now using your other chats. Even if you're not within a project, it's using your other chats and it knows that. And so it was like, you need this. So again, that's your avenue in. If you haven't ranked well in Google, it does not seem to be totally necessary. That said, the correlation part, the last thing I'll say is we are saying it's correlation and it's not. We're not claiming it's 100% causal. What does that mean? Obvious. ChatGPT we know relies on like the training data part of it. It's ingested all of this, you know, written human works, including books and podcasts and all this stuff. And then it's regurgitating stuff back in this, like, you know, what's the most likely next word type thing? That's how this generative AI works. And so if you're mentioned more often, correlating to a topic, it's likely to recommend you again. Salesforce CRM is a classic example. If it's asked about CRMs in all of the things it's ever ingested, what do you think is the CRM that's like most often mentioned? Sales scripts. And so they're going to win in that respect. Right. And so there is a correlation of like those brands with the most brand kind of mention also are the ones that are going to have the most Google like rankings and domain authority. And so. Yes, like, can you find ways to get mentioned by ChatGPT without ranking on Google? Yes, but like at some point you just need to do marketing and get some brand recognition. And then even if you're not intentionally doing bottom of the funnel, like SEO, the way we recommend other people with list posts and recommendation sites and recommendation, whatever should be starting to mention you when you get some brand authority. [00:44:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:01] Speaker A: And those things are probably going to. [00:44:03] Speaker B: Be correlated, you know, One of the things that gives me like a sense of freedom almost after being like strapped to Google from a content perspective for so long is we can write this opinionated content that actually has quite a benefit, I think, with LLMs that might not have with Google because it doesn't have this whole context. Right. Like you and I were talking the other day talking about Wave, like your new writing tool. Like we want to write a piece like podcast hosting for coaches. Like, we might not have written that before. Maybe we should have, I don't know. But like it to me, it sure as heck makes more sense to write about it now. Because if so, if they know, if Chat knows that someone is a coach and they're looking for a podcast host. [00:44:46] Speaker A: Yes. [00:44:47] Speaker B: Cool. [00:44:47] Speaker A: Yes, that's a great example. Yeah. [00:44:51] Speaker B: And like, so it's like brand width almost, you know, and like, I don't really care if it ranks for in Google at all. Right. So I can write more of this stuff that's kind of mid funnel, but really contextually specific for a broad variety of people, which is where again, like folks who have done some bottom of funnel and are kind of just tired of trying to rank for podcast hosting software, we say like, fuck it, we're just not going to do that. We're going to go up here and maybe not get 10% conversion, but like 1% conversion or whatever the AI equivalent of that is kind of brand reach. I want to ask about like AI in general and like, I'll just tell you, I get super dark here real quick. You know, everyone's like, is it different this time? I don't know, like, what's your, what's your kind of take on like how AI is going to change our like jobs and day to day life in the next like 18 months? [00:45:55] Speaker A: When you say. I'll answer that when I'm curious. When you say you get dark, you mean pessimistic. [00:46:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I, I think that like mass unemployment is more likely than a good outcome. And that's. [00:46:08] Speaker A: Oh, interesting. [00:46:08] Speaker B: And that's the risk for us all. Yeah. [00:46:11] Speaker A: So two answers to this. Number one is I generally shy away from questions like this. Shy is probably not the right word. I very intentionally. [00:46:26] Speaker B: You're not a LinkedIn bro about stuff like this, right? [00:46:29] Speaker A: I, I don't, I, I don't make these future predictions. I'm not a future prediction guy. Like my, my sort of life philosophy is live in the moment, you don't know what's going to happen, whatever. Now if you want the future prediction version of Grow and convert. Talk to Benji, my co founder. He loves that stuff. [00:46:46] Speaker B: Okay, but. [00:46:49] Speaker A: But since you. But since you asked. Since you asked. My current take. My current take. I had that. I had. I was thinking what you're thinking at some point. My current take right now is I actually think it's not going to be as bad as what pessimists like you are thinking. And here's. Here's my argument. So maybe this will help you sort of be happier when you get into a dark circle here. Um, from what I can tell so far, AI is magical in many ways relative to the technology we have had. It can do things that you're just like, whoa, what? But it is not perfect. And that may be like Davis, of course. Like, its technology is not perfect, but it's not perfect enough to where it seems like the best way to use it is to have a human who has some expertise that can be the ultimate decider between perfect and not perfect. The analogy that goes into my head is the like, head Chef. I think of Gordon Ramsay's show Kitchen Nightmares or no, Hell's Kitchen, where he's the head chef at the line who tastes the dish before it goes out. He's not cooking each of the line stuff, but he's the last taster. And so this can transition into Waverider, which we demoed for you a few days ago, is like, we think Waverider is a better marketing AI writer, but we tell people, don't just copy and paste the output. Like, you still need a human to be like, is this right? Or whatever. So, for example, AI is pretty good, really good at, like, coding, from what I understand. And. And like, Excel coding. I don't know. I'm not a developer, but I know our developer co founder for. For Waverider, is using a bunch of that. And he's like, this is amazing. It's like, I have, like, 10 junior developers, and that's your site of like. Well, look, see, Literally, he's using Anthropic in place of, like, junior developers. Sure. Yes. I'm not. I don't. I. I would imagine some entry level jobs are going to become deemed unnecessary. Actually, I'll give you a second example on your darker or pessimistic side. We had a client that had an overact. We had a client that had a lawyer. He was like, let me send your contract to the lawyer. We're ready to get started. And then, of course, lawyers do what lawyers do. And she, like, came back with a bunch of these changes that I was like, come on. Like this is not necessary. Like what even is this? And I was like, oh, like these are heavy enough to where like I can't just resolve it myself. So I reached out to the lawyer. We used a bajillion years ago to create our contract. Some small business contract lawyer for agencies like us. And he was like, oh, David Schneichler, nice to hear you from you again. We have these new plans, choose from these plans on our website. I had to buy some set number of hours and then I had to talk to some junior lawyer on his team and it was going to be like 10 hours later or like 10 days later was his first opening. And I was like, oh hell no, we need to close this client now. And so I was like, screw it. I put the edits and the full contract into ChatGPT and Claude and I had both of them would be like, is this acceptable? What is she saying? And like, what does this mean in English? And can I accept it as whatever? And they were like, here are the risks, here's whatever. And I had both of them do it cross referenced and then I just handled it. Yep, that guy just lost some business, right? [00:50:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:17] Speaker A: And so some of that is absolutely true. But so that's true. The graphic stuff that I've seen, I think there's going to be a world where UI contract, UI stuff is not going to be as necessary 100%. That's true. But mass unemployment, at some point you're going to want a human UX designer to oversee that. You're going to want a human content marketer to oversee that. And that person is still going to need critical thinking and expertise to decide is this garbage or not? [00:50:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:48] Speaker A: Is this useful or not? And how do I put the pieces together? So in. So the optimistic outlook is, is it just is a force multiplier, just like, absolutely. The invention of a gas powered tractor, you know, like made not necessary. Like pulling a plow with like an ox or like by hand or whatever. And I guess that that's a really silly analogy. No, I think it's all the modern analogies. Excel, Excel made all kinds of like, you know, manual calculations. Not necessary. Did that display some jobs? Absolutely. But like, are we all like, oh my God, Excel has ruined the economy and everyone's unemployed? No, you just sort of like, it's like a force multiplier of technology. And I think that that's kind of what I'm seeing now. I'm not like we had a few clients be like, I don't know, we might try ChatGPT, but the vast majority are like, I still need to hire. I don't know. I don't know up from down. Like, I still want to hire a content agency to help with this, you know? [00:51:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I think, like, specific to what you guys do. Yeah, I mean, you know, AI can write pretty well, but the. I think for you guys, the type of customer who is your icp, I'm sure, doesn't want to figure that out. And that gap is unacceptable to them. Right. The gap between, like, what Waverider or a great cloud project or whatever can do, it's like 10. That last 10, which is super hard. Right? Like, that last 10. [00:52:15] Speaker A: And I'll be honest with some of our clients and how fastidious they are even about our writing. Yeah, for some of them, it's not 10%. It's like, it's like 75% gap of like, this is like, yes, we have a lot of clients that hire us that are extremely fastidious. Not the majority, but some of them are for them, like, it's a lot of back and forth with our carefully human written stuff by really talented strategists on our team, where we're like, you are obsessing over details that don't matter. Trust me, we know better. And they're like, no, no, trust me, we know better. And so it's like, those people are not using it. They're not going to. [00:52:50] Speaker B: No, no, we. We think about that with, like, we have an agency side of our business, too, where we do, like, done for you editing. And like, yeah, those people just. They don't even want to know the word descript. You know, they're just like, fuck it, I'm going to record in Riverside and send Craig the link, and it's just going to be done next week. Like, that's just who we want. Cool. So I know Waverider is very new. We're very fortunate to be in the. In the kind of alpha group. But. But, like, what's the. What's the kind of pitch? Who's it for? Where are you on the project? Yeah, yeah. [00:53:20] Speaker A: Waverider is us leaning into a high writing when at the very beginning, we were like, this is bad. Keep hiring us. And then at some point, we were. We were like, oh, maybe we should experiment with this. So we tried this. We tried chatgpt, Claude. In fact, I think I. I led that inside our company, tried all this stuff, and I was like, man, like, it's so, like, fluffy. And weird. So we were like, okay, we, we can't lean out of this. Like we have to lead. We can't be Kodak and pretend AI doesn't exist. And so Kodak doing that with digital cameras and then dying as a result, being like, oh, our film cameras are way better and they didn't produce digital. That's the analogy if anyone doesn't know. So we then did a survey and I surveyed, I think 50 marketers responded. There's a whole like write up about all the results about how are they using AI for marketing writing. Then the first question slapped us across the face where 80 some percent of them said, I have published AI assisted writing already. The majority of published wasn't just one, it was like multiple pieces. And then what was interesting is on the back end of that survey, on the, some of the, some of the open ended questions, they had all the complaints we had. [00:54:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:30] Speaker A: They weren't saying I published it. And it's amazing. They were like, it is a pain in the ass to edit. It's fluffy. It just produces AI nonsense and I just hate it. And yet they still are using it. [00:54:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:44] Speaker A: And, and, and what My conclusion of that is from reading all of these responses and you can see all the responses, you can download it on our website, you can see the raw results. And my write up on it is that's the sign of technology that's here to stay is like when even when it's kind of bad, you still use it means that it solves a pain point so intense that you're willing to put up with the bad stuff. [00:55:10] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the definition of product, market fit. [00:55:12] Speaker A: Right. It's the equivalent of a good enough relationship to where you get married. Anyone who's been married knows, look at you laughing. Anyone who's been married knows, they're not, they're not, you're not perfect and they're not perfect either. And there's parts where you drive each other crazy. But like a good marriage is one where you are like, you know, like, you know, you know those old couples are like 70, 80 and like they're still in love and it's super cute. And you talk to them when you're like on vacation on some boat in like the Caribbean and you're like, oh, like where are you from? Whatever. And you're just like, this is the cutest couple I've ever seen in my life. And they're just like, yeah, like, you know, Bill, he just drives me crazy with his blah, blah, blah. But I still Love him. Like, that's product market fit. That's product market fit where you're like, I hate this and yet I still use it. We have tons of things like that, right? Because what it does for you, that's good is such an important thing that you put up with all the other nonsense. And I was like, okay, how do we make this better? And we had this idea of the, the pain points in that survey which we ourselves experienced firsthand ourselves and these writers, marketers, after marketers were saying it was like it produces fluff. What is fluff? They would use that word, fluff. Fluff is something we've talked about before AI writing. So we have an old post worth reading called Mirage Content. We argued, this was like six years ago. We argued. Back then, human writers and companies were producing mirage content. Mirage content, it looks good from the surface, but when you really be like, what does the sentence say? What does this content say? You're like, it actually doesn't say anything. It's just this like, kind of like beginner, like tropey, whatever stuff. And you're like, the English is right, the English is perfect. AI's English is perfect. But like, you're like, is this. It's just like jargony nonsense, right? And so because we had thought so hard at grow and convert of producing better writing and like, why Mirage Content is bad, we have trained so many writers, it is a huge pain point for us finding people to join our team, right? We, we filter out tons of people and we thought so hard about it, we were like, oh my God, we're perfectly positioned to have something better. And the, the main thing that Waverider does that sort of the end result of that thinking was the reason this stuff is fluff is ChatGPT and these other writing tools. They don't actually write based on knowledge of your business, product features, value propositions. If you feed it content, it helps, but often it's just imitating voice. And so we were like, well, how do we get it to first know your business? Our process for the agency is like that, where we sit down at the beginning and say, I want to talk to your sales team. I want to talk to whoever is customer facing and understand their pain points at a deep level. Then and only then are we going to build a content strategy for you. And in all of our interviews also we say, but we're not going to just Google around and write stuff on this piece. We're going to carefully understand your business. And then, and then we're going to Interview someone on your team that knows about this topic and say what they're saying onto this piece. So Waverider is built like that. That's its core thing, is it? You give it a bunch of content, whether it's written sources like blog posts, whether it's like transcripts of a demo call you have with the sales team or whatever. And then it, it carefully says, this is my understanding of your business. And we have trained it to do that in a very specific way. Like, not just like, here's my summary of the. Of the sources you provided. But no, like, here are your features, here are the customers, here are the pain points of the customers that you solve. Here's how your features solve the problem. Here are your differentiators relative to competitors. Here's all the competitors and alternatives you can do. This is like how we think about it. For every single client, then the user can like, edit and make sure that that's right. And then every time you generate a marketing copy output, like a draft, like something we call a super brief in there, which is a deep SEO analysis document where you give it a keyword and it tells you a bunch of ideas, like how you can attack that keyword, whether it's social posts and things that are coming. An email newsletter copy for your like, feature page or landing page, your marketing site copy, it now does that with the context of your brand, features, product, customer pain points and all of that every single time. And we've trained it to be very careful. So then when it fills in the blanks, when you give it rough outlines and stuff, the way people use AI writing, when it fills in the blanks, it does that as someone who knows your business, not just the writing voice, that's easy, but as the substance of the arguments. Now, is it perfect? No, it's still AI. But for us, when we see it, we're like, oh, my God, this is actually like usable now. Versus the other stuff was like, so. [01:00:19] Speaker B: So I've been really impressed so far. Just a, you know, we had a demo and then I've gotten into it a bit the last couple of days. Like, yeah, follows the workflow, workflow I have with Claude, which is very manual because you can't use Claude API to automate a lot of this because it loses all the context you would have, like in a project chatgpt and enable OpenAI the same way. So, yeah, I'm really enjoying it. I think there's a lot of, I think there's a lot to this, like, how can we add extra Context to the stuff that we're using AI for so that it understands us and the jobs that we want it to do better. And it's hard. Like, I think this is the big untapped thing with, with AI tools right now. [01:00:55] Speaker A: I'm excited to get more feedback from you, so keep, you know, let us know. Because you, you and I mentioned this on the demo. You are more advanced than most of the people that are using it. Because you were like, oh, yeah, I have a, like, Claude project and I do this in this really specific way and I've already tested that versus the API. Most people are just like, I don't know. Like, I, I created some LLM stuff and it's not very good. And so like, wow, yeah, this is way better. You are at the advanced end. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. [01:01:22] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, it's an interesting time for sure. [01:01:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Waverider is in, Is. Is limited beta. So we created it, we started using it ourselves, and we realized that Grow and Convert, the Grow and Convert team, our writers and strategists, weren't the ideal customer for it because again, we have created a company and an agency where we're anal retentive about writing. We have found people and trained them extremely elaborately over lots of time to be anal retentive about their writing. Like, half of our strategists, all strategists, are writers. Most of, like, half of them are like, I can't even use another writer. I will write all the pieces myself. [01:02:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:03] Speaker A: Because they're like, even this, the human writers that we trained, we're like, this person's good. They're just like, I don't know, like, I don't. It's not like my style or whatever. So like, that's fine. So then at some point we realized, hold on. Based on the survey, there's a ton of people that are way less stainless about their writing and that's going to be the audience for this. Like, our, our, our strategists aren't going to use it. So that's why we said let's. It's not at all as, as you know, it's like not designed inside. It can still be buggy. And so it's not at all for public release yet. So we said, let's just have like 10ish beta users that are not us, have them use it and then start to get feedback from folks that are not us. And so that's where we're at now. If you want to, if you're interested in it and you want to be sort of on the list for when we open it up to more slots, which we may do in a month or so. Not Waverider, you should just join the newsletter at Grow and convert, so growandconvert.com newsletter or you can just find the newsletter link on the top, right? [01:03:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Awesome buddy. Great to catch up. This is really a great discussion for me. Best place for folks to follow you other than growandconvert.com, like LinkedIn anywhere. [01:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah in at Davis Canal. D E V E S H K H A N A L I would I used to say Twitter, but I will be honest, I do not tweet almost anymore. It seems like the marketing discussion has moved to LinkedIn, so LinkedIn and growing converts newsletter are the key places. [01:03:29] Speaker B: Awesome. Awesome buddy. I appreciate it. Thank you. [01:03:31] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you.