Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:08 Welcome to the Rogue Startups Podcast, where two startup founders are sharing lessons learned and pitfalls to avoid in their online businesses. And now here's Dave and Craig.
Speaker 2 00:00:20 Hello. Welcome back to Rogue Startups. This is episode 2 72. Dave, how's it going?
Speaker 3 00:00:26 I am doing unreasonably well. <laugh>, how about yourself?
Speaker 2 00:00:31 The holiday depression just hasn't set in yet, huh?
Speaker 3 00:00:34 <laugh>? No, uh, you know, so I normally, my Decembers are very flat and kind of uneventful, and I'm usually left with this sense of I should be doing something, but I don't really know what, and oftentimes I'm just, uh, it, it's very much a downtime, like energy wise, customer wise, movement in the business wise, all those things. But this year has been the opposite of all of those things, and I, I'm kind of scratching my head as to why it, it's definitely not what I have expected in years past. I mean, I, I've seen this pattern so many times in December, it was pretty damn predictable. There are two months that are almost entirely predictable with recapture, and this is one of 'em, especially this time of year. But it's been very different this year. And consequently, it's like, it's kind of changed my whole mood, my whole outlook, my productivity, like everything. And so that's why I say I'm doing unreasonably well because my expectations were so much lower for this time of year <laugh>. And it's, it's going much better than I really thought it would be.
Speaker 2 00:01:48 Well, that's great to hear, man. Honestly, like, that's just super cool. Like, I think it's, um, yeah, it's always nice to have a pleasant surprise. You had like DMed me earlier about like, I think like trying to figure out why <laugh> that is, like, do you have any, any insights into that to try to like repeat or optimize it? Or is it just like a, a happy accident and you'll, you'll take the win while you can?
Speaker 3 00:02:11 I think there's a little bit of each into, into the whole mix, if I'm being entirely honest. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So there are definitely parts of it that are not in my control. Like, we've had great success with our merchants and you know, as much as I would like to say that I am making all of them wildly filthy rich, the truth is I'm not, it's up to them to do that. Like, their sales have to go, well, their products have to have a fit, their customers have to like it, they've gotta ship all, all of those things and they're doing okay, which is kind of weird because, you know, everybody's talking about, oh, we got a recession coming in 2023, or the recession's already here, 2022, everything's down, everything's wonky. And I'm kind of like, yeah, some businesses are seeing that, but not entirely. Like, it's not across the board and recapture.
Speaker 3 00:03:00 So there's that. But at the same time, I feel like I have been super intentional about like coming up with plans and planting a bunch of seeds and, you know, trying to be very, very careful about watering them and weeding around them and protecting them and all of that sort of thing. And I think it's starting to kind of feel like some things are coming to fruition on there. Uh, and it's kind of, it's additive to do multiple things and eventually they start to bear fruit slowly, but it took a long time, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I, it feels like some of this might be part of that, but you know, it's not like I have direct marketing attribution that says, oh, I started this campaign on September 21st and it is now kicking ass. Yeah. Like, no <laugh>, no, no, no, no, I have none of that. So, uh, whatever it is that's going on right now, I am very happy and I'm very much trying to nurture it as much as possible and take advantage of the energy, you know, making hay while the sun is shining. You
Speaker 2 00:04:08 Know, like what I think part of this is, is the, the lag between an initiative and seeing it pay off be, because even if you could say, oh, we did this thing in June, right? You would just be seeing the results now, I think for, for most things, partnerships, content, affiliates paid, I mean, paid is a little quicker, but even paid takes months to figure out. Uh, and so, oh yeah. So like I think that you stack a couple of those on top of each other and they all each have their own little dynamic. Yeah. I do think that it is like one just fuzzy, uh, and then two, like even if it's clear, it just takes for fucking ever. And like, I think that's really fair to say. Like, I don't know, but generally we've been doing the right things and you know, r r is showing that like, I think that's totally fair and like, okay to leave it at that, I guess, you know?
Speaker 3 00:05:01 Yeah. I mean, one of my goals in 2022 was to run a bunch of experiments because I really didn't have a clear picture of what I needed to do to move recapture forward. And so my goal was to just try a bunch of shit, see what happened. But you know, I mean, I was doing it, it wasn't like I was just grabbing random piles of feces and throwing it against the wall, right? <laugh>, <laugh>, if we're continuing the really gross analogy here, it was very much like, okay, I know that this, this thing focused in this way has done something for me in the past, so let's see if I can double down with more intention or to go deeper with the audience or to try to connect with more people like that. Or what is it about those people that made them want to sign up in the first place?
Speaker 3 00:05:47 So it was diving deeper into things I kind of knew already worked, but I hadn't explored them well enough to say, yes, this is a great channel, or no, I should walk away from this. Yes. So, you know, I I'm definitely walking away from 2022 feeling smarter than I was at the beginning of 2022, but I have probably just as many questions and a whole list of plans to go into 2023, uh, which is pretty exciting cuz last year I, I kind of felt a little more lost and I feel a lot less lost this year. Uh, so that's kind of cool. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:06:20 That's awesome, man. That's awesome. I mean, I, yeah, it's a great segue into kind of one of my updates is a similar sense of at the same time certainty and uncertainty. And, and that's my wife says, like we all need is certainty and uncertainty and that balance to kind of pull us in in both directions. Yeah. I have degrees of certainty about what we need to do and uncertainty about how to do them to where they make a difference. <laugh>, you know, and especially around like growth, right? Sales, marketing, customer acquisition, right? Um, like some things have worked, uh, we can continue to do some of them better and to a, a like deeper degree and, and talking about like inbound marketing, you know, content and seo, how that happens is the question, but like, pretty surely know that like we can do twice as good as we have and that's the certainty, the uncertainty is fucking which string are we gonna pull on to get there.
Speaker 2 00:07:17 Uh, because there's a dozen different ways we can approach it. And yeah. So I think similarly like feel pretty good that like the business is growing and think we can continue to do this and do better, but, but the exact path is a little fuzzy, which like, I'll take it, you know, all things considered because, you know, there's a lot of businesses that are in the shitter or, or think they're in the shitter and I'm gonna say something controversial maybe it's usually, ooh, oh yes. It's usually it. You, it, um, <laugh> I think I thi I think overall the recession is way overhyped. I think we are past the worst part of inflation by far. And I think that all of, not all, most all of the bad stuff that will happen as a, as it relates to a recession have already happened. Will we stay down here, you know, from a stock market and, you know, sentiment perspective maybe, but, but I don't think it's gonna be this total shitter of the.com bust or 2008 or any of those things.
Speaker 2 00:08:27 Like it's mostly, I think, and this, I'm not an economist and a bunch of people way smarter than me are gonna say that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but just from a me personally perspective and what I see in the business is people are a little scared and a little unsure. Some people have lost their jobs. Most all of us have less available money than we had a year ago, but that last part is a hundred percent getting better. The cost of everything around here is down 20% from what it was at least. And as long as that continues to not get worse, uh, I think that we'll start coming out of the recession to where by this time next year, I think we could all be, you know, quite in a different place.
Speaker 3 00:09:14 You know what, I'm gonna be controversial as well and say I agree with you <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:09:19 Yeah. Nice. Um, maybe it's not so controversial then. Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:09:23 No, I think it is because like if you listen to the news cycle, if you look at Twitter, if you hear what other people are talking about, I don't hear a lot of people talking about a positive economic outlook in 2023. And I see, you know, it's interesting, you know, looking back in my professional life now, this'll be like my fourth recession, right? So we had the.com bust, we had the great financial crisis, uh, we had the Covid crisis and then this'll be the fourth, right? And I would argue that we probably already have lived through the worst of it as well, certainly with inflation. But, you know, I read, because I'm interested in history in general, I'm just sort of a history nerd. I read like some books about the 1920s and the late 18 hundreds about the railroad Barrons and how the great financial crisis of that time totally fucked the banking system and caused all the things like the s e c to be created and so on.
Speaker 3 00:10:23 And what's interesting is that the, by the time everybody agrees, oh shit, we're in a recession, it's already getting better. Yeah. That's almost, almost universal. In fact, that was true in 2008, I remember the shit hit the fan and then it was like 2010 or 2011 and everybody's like, oh God, this is terrible. And I, I was looking around like, oh, it seems, I mean, yes, some things look bad, but it feels like things are generally getting better. Like people were doing more hiring. I got a raise that year. A lot of other people I knew got a raise that year. Tech was starting to boom again, the stock market was going up, like the talk and the movement of the actual economic indicators didn't really line up. And I was like, huh, that's really interesting. And then when I looked at other recessions, like that kind of followed suit and I wasn't really paying attention that much in.com because, you know, that was a time, that was really the first big one I had hit in my career and I was still freaked out by the whole thing and I had lost my job.
Speaker 3 00:11:29 And so I wasn't really paying attention to, Hey, let's check out the news cycle today and see how the whole economic indicators versus the sentiment are going on. Cuz I was like, fuck this, I need a job.
Speaker 2 00:11:39 <laugh> <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:11:40 But you know, after you've seen things a few times, you're like, huh, I've seen that. I've heard that music before. Yeah. And this song sucked. Yeah. But when that song started, like the better dancing is happening in the other room already. You know, that kind of a of a weird analogy and it kind of feels like that here. And you know, what I'm seeing on recapture kind of matches that. Like, if things were really bad, I would've expected people's businesses to just be absolute shit over Black Friday through the holidays here. And that is not what I am seeing. Yeah. That is definitely not what I'm seeing. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:12:14 I mean, we saw like the best ever Black Friday this year and, and like I'm sure again, not a fucking economist, I'm sure if you dig into it, that like the distribution of large purchases is lower than it was in previous years or whatever. Like Bezos saying, don't go out and buy a big tv, like whatever. But just generally, yeah, I mean we've all lived through, you know, the, the financial crisis most of us right. Covid like those are really, really, really bad. And this is not another one of those, I guess is like the, the simple way for me to think about it. So yeah. Is it gonna be bad? Yeah. It like, is that normal after fucking interest rates are zero for a decade? Probably. And like, it's just not the euphoria that it was for five years, but it's normal kind of, you know? And and I think that that's the, the challenge that a lot of us have is like, oh man, this is normal and normal kind of sucks. Well fucking like, deal with it, you know?
Speaker 3 00:13:12 Right. And you know, if you're totally doubting what Craig and I have to say, and you have every right to doubt that you should be skeptical. <laugh>, one thing I would highly, highly recommend is there's a great video, uh, by Ray Dalio about economic cycles. Have you ever seen this? Yes. Yep.
Speaker 2 00:13:30 Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:13:31 I fucking love that video. I made all my kids watch it and they, afterwards they were like, oh my God, that's like the best explanation of how the economy works. Like their own social studies teachers never explained it. Not through middle school, not through high school. And so when they watched that 30 minute video, it's a little bit of a commitment, but by the time you get done, like I felt seriously smarter and I thought I understood something about economics, but no, I I, it was, it was really, really good about long-term and short-term cycles and inflation and debt and all of the stuff that everybody talks about and throws these terms around. But I didn't really feel like I had that kind of level of understanding of it. And again, I'm not an economist either, and certainly not my background. But yeah, I mean, it definitely gives you a little bit of perspective. Like, this has been happening for a long time, it's gonna keep happening for a very long time as well until, you know, massive economic collapse and we get a giant meteor hitting the earth and then I'm pretty sure it's done. But yeah, not now.
Speaker 2 00:14:29 Yeah. And I think, you know, it's like knowledge is power, right? And, and like you having watched that video, I've watched it too. It's amazing. And, and like, just understanding that these patterns happen and don't try to fight it. Just kind of sit here and be patient and in a year things will, I, you know, I feel pretty strong that in a year, like we will, we will be in a, in, in a good spot. And so for the next year just say like, Hey, I'm gonna like temper my expectations about growth and all this kind of stuff and understand that like we're going through this cycle. The last six months have probably been pretty tough. The next year will probably be, you know, not great. And then we'll be back to, to the boom times. I, the, I I think there's a very real chance of that.
Speaker 2 00:15:10 Um, I think that what we see in the Twitter sphere of, you know, all these company la all these companies laying off bunch people is because they're, they're living right on the edge, you know, they're super, uh, funded and they are counting on interest rates being low and getting more money and all this kinda stuff. And when they don't, then, then they have a different reality as opposed to business like yours and ours that like can be cash flow neutral or, or profitable. Like pretty easy. And, and like, so to us the, like, the optionality we have is just so much, uh, so much higher. But anyways, I think we're beating a dead horse a bit about this <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:15:45 Um, well I will say one last thing about this, and that is I think that there's going to be a great reckoning in 2023 with all VC funded businesses Mm. That are not, that are not cash neutral, as you put it, that are burning cash left and right. That their business plan assumed that they would have infinite cash or that they just assumed that the next round was always coming and they didn't have to worry too much about it. Product market fit matters more than ever. Like the bootstrap space is looking pretty good right now. Yep. Uh, and you know, I love talking in interviews where people are like, so are you funded? And I'm like, no, <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:16:23 Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:16:24 We are totally good. We're a hundred percent profitable, neutral all good. Like, you know, unless our customers do a mass migration cuz we fucked something up, we're okay. And I'm happy to say that. So that's, that's the great reckoning I think we're gonna see in 2023. So that's probably gonna dominate the news cyclist businesses that are getting hit with that. Yep. That's my
Speaker 2 00:16:45 Prediction. Yep. And, and pe and the big players will gobble those folks up and that'll be, that'll be cool to see. Yeah. Um, so are we gonna talk about Elon or are we gonna talk about ai? Because that's all there is. Or gum road, uh, <laugh>, which <laugh> are you gonna talk about? <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:17:05 Oh geez. The gum road thing. I mean, I think Elon's been beaten to death and the, you know, yeah. Yeah. That whole thing is just, it's sad to watch and I don't even wanna talk about that one anymore, but the gum road thing. Wow.
Speaker 2 00:17:17 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:17:18 Wow. What a,
Speaker 2 00:17:19 This grew in the pooch, huh? Amazing.
Speaker 3 00:17:22 Oh yeah, that hurt. That was, that was sad to see. Especially from a, a really experienced, really, well I would call Sahi a very deep thinker, generally. Like he thinks things through very, very deeply and the stuff that I've seen before and the things that he's published in his blog posts and his tweets and stuff like that, that, so this feels so ham-fisted for him.
Speaker 2 00:17:52 I'm on a roll today, Dave. I'm gonna say something else controversial.
Speaker 3 00:17:56 Okay. You're, you're not gonna agree with me. I love it. Just li
Speaker 2 00:18:00 I'm gonna say this being the c e and founder of a company that serves creators. I agree. He's a very smart guy. And what nobody is talking about, I think is he may know more than anyone except for Patreon about the creator economy. And so he knows and has the data that says this is the decision he has to make. It's terrible for creators, it's bad for their brand, it may ruin the company, but it's the decision he has to make. I, I think Right? Like I'm assuming that Right. Assuming he doesn't want to just be a jerk, right? And, and like raise prices on everyone. Uh,
Speaker 3 00:18:36 Yeah, no, um, no, no, no. I mean, he's, he's way too smart to just decide to be a jerk for being a jerks sake. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:42 And, and I I, I think that they will take a hit, right? And you see everyone's gonna go to lemon squeezy or everyone's gonna go to convert Kit commerce or whatever, and, and that will a hundred percent happen. But I believe that the company will be okay because he knows this is a decision they have to make and they will get through this and they will come out the other side and have learned and adjust the, the course and everything to, uh, to, to, to persevere. Like I think he is a smart person and has been through this like I know it wasn't handled well. Um, and, and I still think that a lot of folks will look at Gum Road as not the most ideal, uh, solution at this point. Maybe they'll walk it back, I don't know. But, but I don't see anyone saying, wow, you know, SEIL and gum wrote, like see more creators than almost anyone other than Patreon and, and like, they didn't do this cuz they're jerks. There has to be a good reason and like maybe you trust him that like, this is just what that company needs.
Speaker 3 00:19:45 Yeah. I'm not so sure. I, it feels like to me he overplayed his hand. Yeah. It, it very much feels like because Gum Road at this point is a commodity.
Speaker 2 00:19:55 It's true, very
Speaker 3 00:19:57 True. What he provides, what they do it, when it came out it was very, very novel and there were very few competitors that could meet them for features, convenience, quality, experience, like all of those things they kicked ass at. And that's why the creators joined that platform and droves, right. Nowadays that's not true anymore. You've got the lemon squeezies out there, you've got, you can cobble something together on WordPress in a, in a couple of hours mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if you really wanted it, you could set this up with Stripe and Zapier if you wanted to. There are probably at least a half a dozen solutions that I could rattle off off the top of my head that are all completely viable and all cost you a lot less. And the bar to get into them is super, super low. So is this, is this 3D chess that he's playing here or was this a misstep that was driven by the aspirations and the, the direction of the board?
Speaker 3 00:20:58 Because I know, uh, you know, I didn't watch the board meeting. Uh, I saw Avid call's tweet where he had actually gone through and, and the board meeting, uh, on there. And, and kudos to you Avid cuz that's not exactly something I would want to do in my free time <laugh>, but I'm glad you did it. Uh, and you know, he was talking about how those decisions sounded like that was the consensus of the board. So I wonder if Sahi is getting out voted on this mm-hmm. <affirmative> interesting. And that's just what they're like, you have all this money that was given to you, you have to do this or you're out. Like I wonder if there's some implicit pressure in there Yeah. That's pushing this, this thing. And maybe that the result of that is some very, very disgruntled high-end customers. Anything that pisses off my high-end customers definitely is a red flag in my, in the recapture playbook. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like if I look at something and I'm like, oh, this pisses off my five biggest customers, that's a problem. Yeah. Unless I suddenly am deciding that my five biggest customers are not where I want to go. But if that was the case, why do you have your five biggest customers on something that is totally outside of what you wanted your wheelhouse to be? There's so many questions there, right?
Speaker 2 00:22:13 Two. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:22:13 Yeah. Yeah. I don't understand
Speaker 2 00:22:15 Hundred, hundred percent. Like two things. One, and I saw Matt wining talk about this on Twitter, the type of investment vehicle that they raised their a hundred million dollar valuation round, uh, last year, I think put some unique pressure on them that people that raise with a safe or a convertible don't have. So that definitely is one of them. And, and we actually talked about this in our team meeting this morning, that like, I'm very glad we are not ultra funded like them because it does put pressure on you that wouldn't be on you otherwise to, to have that much money that you should be doing something with. So I, I do think there's a financial pressure that came with this decision, which, you know, that makes you make bad decisions. <laugh>. The other, the other thing that you know is pretty interesting is if you do the math on these kind of rev share businesses, it's really hard to make a lot of money because the, the distribution of successful merchants or vendors is a mega kind of long tail, right? The, the number or the percentage of people that make a lot of money on gum road is way less than 1%. I bet.
Speaker 3 00:23:27 Very small. Yeah. Yes. Totally
Speaker 2 00:23:29 Agree. And so, I mean, to me, to me and what, what I said to our team this morning is like, I, I think this could be the end of the rev share as a business model kind of movement, right? Because, so for so long it's like, oh, we'll just participate in the upside and when our customers win, we win win and all this kind of stuff. And like, yeah, maybe, but like I look at the creator economy tools and I look at something like Cajabi, uh, and there's a couple out there that like, charge $200 a month and don't take any percentage. That's a better business. And, and like, I wonder if that's what this is really telling us. Like if you're a, if you're a, a merchant or a, a creator and you're selling a million dollars worth of stuff a year, you wanna pay 200 bucks and not have someone take 10% of your stuff, you know,
Speaker 3 00:24:15 Or any percent of your stuff If you can get it for a flat fee, that's
Speaker 2 00:24:19 Huge. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like to me, that's what it says, right? And like, that's, that's where we want to go. Like we're building a very similar tool for audio, right? And so I think the way to go is if you wanna partner with the creator, partner with the creator, charge 'em a fair price to use your tool and don't screw 'em every step along the way, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:24:41 Yeah. I will say that along those same lines that you just described there, where, you know, the rev share model breaks down at the higher end. I saw the exact same thing and recapture pricing mm-hmm. <affirmative> when I picked my top tiers and I was originally thinking, oh, I could leave this uncapped and you know, as people recover more, I can just charge more. But what I found was once you passed a certain threshold, and it's kind of a fuzzy threshold, it depends from merchant to merchant, but whatever it is, once you pass a certain threshold, the merchant just doesn't want to keep paying you to recover more. They kind of want it capped because they're super concerned about their expenses and it's that whole, your margin is my opportunity thing, right? So in, in the case of recapture where I could basically say, look, I'll give this to you for a fixed cost.
Speaker 3 00:25:39 Yeah. Then they were like, oh my God, yeah, totally. I'll sign up and do that then. But when I said, yeah, it varies from month to month, and they're like, oh, you mean my costs are uncertain and they could go up from where I am now, which was already pretty big. Uh, I don't know about that. Like, it generates additional friction about them wanting to sign up for your, for your solution. So when you can take that away through certainty with fixed price plans or lower flat price, whatever, uh, that, that makes a huge difference at certain scales. I've noticed at lower scales, you know, they're actually happy that it's tied to success. I've noticed this is maybe just true of recapture customers, but it feels very much like that would be the case. Like, Hey, you're not gonna overcharge me for this. Cool. When it goes up, you go up, oh, when it goes down, you go down. Cool, I like that. But you get past a certain point and you're making, you know, $50,000 a month, you're like, you know, 399 versus 4 99, Ugh. You know, I kind of just wanna pay 3 99 mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like I'm already getting a lot from you. So now I actually, I had advertised that specifically as an advantage. I say, once you hit our top tier, your recovery is uncapped and your ROI is unlimited.
Speaker 2 00:26:54 Yeah. Yep.
Speaker 3 00:26:56 And that's a selling point. It really resonates with those merchants. Yeah. So yeah, I totally understand. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:27:01 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Woo. I'm tired. That was a lot of <laugh> lot <laugh>. No, I mean there's the, the, it's, there's just a lot going on these days, right? And, and it's, um, it's just really interesting to see, you know, I think that, yeah, it's just, it's the, the news cycle is so fast and we are all kind of in touch with what's going on to a really high degree. I dunno if it's coming outta Covid or me being back in the US or whatever it is, but it feels like everything is, is moving very quickly these days and there's a lot to process. So, um, I'm glad we have this avenue to, to kind of process some of these things
Speaker 3 00:27:36 For now, for now
Speaker 2 00:27:37 <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:27:38 Yeah. Until Twitter goes away and then we're gonna be like, well, what do we talk
Speaker 2 00:27:41 About? Yeah. Yeah. We won't.
Speaker 3 00:27:43 No, not really. That, that will never be the case. <laugh>. No, no. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:27:46 Noah. Well, do we wanna spend a few minutes talking about, uh, like year end stuff and recap on, on the year end? Kind of looking forward to next year?
Speaker 3 00:27:53 Yeah, let's do that. Uh, you want me to? Sure.
Speaker 2 00:27:56 Go for it.
Speaker 3 00:27:57 So since this episode is definitely our year end closer here, I think it would be totally appropriate and probably valuable for both of us to sort of talk about like what were the big things that we, uh, took away from this year or the big wins that we had this year, uh, or the big lessons that we're walking away from. What do you think?
Speaker 2 00:28:21 Yeah, sounds good.
Speaker 3 00:28:21 All right. Well I'll start, uh, because I had said earlier, like, I had done all those experiments and I came away feeling a lot smarter. So what I really realized actually this year was some strategies that I had been clinging to for a long time had a lot less value when I dug really deeply into them than I previously believed that they had. So as a result, I'm not gonna move forward with those strategies as deeply, uh, as I was specifically with partnerships in 2023. Um, which is kind of surprising cuz I always, if you had asked me at the beginning of 2022, I would've said partnerships in one of the strongest ways that recapture has grown. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I've not added a ton of partnerships this year and we've grown anyway. So that totally discounts my theory at this point. Right? Yep. So that's definitely one of my big learnings for the year.
Speaker 3 00:29:20 Um, and then, you know, looking forward into 2023, uh, I've also been sys like to a fault, really systematically avoiding any kind of content marketing whatsoever. And I finally stopped to do some research after, uh, I had some competitor mentions on Twitter right around Black Friday. And when I was doing that research, I found that I had a high number of mofu or BOFU keywords that were almost negligible keyword difficulty. And now with something like chat g p t to help me generate a blog skeleton where I can go through and do an edit in an hour or something like that, it feels just downright irresponsible to leave that stuff on the table for 2023 after having neglected it for so long. Like, it's just
Speaker 2 00:30:25 Stupid. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:30:26 And you know, I've been, I've been trying to convince myself that content marketing won't work. Content marketing is oversaturated content marketing, I can't compete with the larger teams or whatever. And then I'm looking at these keywords going, I can be getting organic traffic off of these reasonably, reasonably trafficked things. A very high buyer intent. Like, I'm not gonna go for a general strategy, it's just these specific ones. So I'm like, that would be stupid if I left that alone. So I'm gonna pick that up in 2023 here.
Speaker 2 00:30:56 Yeah. I mean I, I, I love it. I always default to content marketing and SEO as the channel all of us should be doing. Whether you add others <laugh> or, or not, like, you know, is, is maybe, uh, debatable. But yeah, I think that there's always a way to win with it. Um, it might not be the fastest or the sexiest, but it is relatively certain, uh, that, that it's a good channel. So I think that's very smart.
Speaker 3 00:31:19 Yeah. My wife would tell you that. Uh, I'm a very stubborn person and it takes a very long time for me to kind of come around on this. So how many years have I been talking about content marketing as a not a viable strategy for recapture? Um, I'd say it's at least two, maybe
Speaker 2 00:31:33 Three. A couple. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, I mean, yeah, so this is, this is a good segue to two. One of my updates is I'm, as, as you were talking, I was thinking about like the recency bias of, of what I would consider like my learnings, um, because all of them are in the last month. Oh yeah. And so I had 11 other months to, to learn stuff <laugh>. Um, but, but now I know everything, uh, because it just happened. But, but no course. I mean, of course, I think course. Um, yes.
Speaker 2 00:32:00 Uh, so I, I'll try to take some threads that were true over the whole year. The, the first one that comes to mind is I can't do this alone and I don't want to do this alone and I'm not getting a co-founder cause there's too late for that. Now I wish I had a co-founder. A lot of things would be easier or slash better I think if I had the right person. But I have been looking for a coach or a mentor for a very long time, and I have one now. And looking back at most of the year, I was lost or uncertain and made some bad decisions. And having this other person that I can trust and is on my side or neutral, uh, is, is something I was missing. And I'm really glad I have it now. And yeah. So just like feel really good about it. It was definitely something I needed for a lot of the year, underperformed, I think because I didn't have it. And am really glad that that is kind of solved at this point. And you know, you know what, like the biggest value of it is, man,
Speaker 3 00:33:11 What? Because I actually don't have a coach and it's something I've considered, but I, I'm not sure if I'm quite there yet, but maybe, maybe you can convince me.
Speaker 2 00:33:20 Yeah. Well, so I don't, I don't know. Right. I, I think it's, it's a personal question, but the biggest value is just making me a more effective person. You know, like they're not gonna solve my problems. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they're not gonna make me work harder, but they're gonna let me talk about what's going on, listen and help me arrive at smarter conclusions and then keep me accountable to those, you know? So like the way I think about it is what do I pay this person a month? If I can work 10 or 20% better, uh, is it worth that? Then the answer is hell yeah. So like, I've had a coach before, I have another one now. And, and like if the math to me and how I work with them and, and how we communicate and stuff makes me a more effective person. And, and most of that comes down to like sales and marketing. Like if I'm a better person to contribute to those parts of the business, then like it's a hundred percent worth it. So yeah, that was, uh, that was, that was a thread for the whole year, right? Missed for a long time in the last kind of month or so, filled that and feeling really good about it.
Speaker 3 00:34:23 Congratulations. That's awesome. That's great.
Speaker 2 00:34:25 Yeah. Rob, you can rest happy knowing that I'm not leaning on you <laugh> to It's a bitch about that anymore. <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:34:34 Okay. So what you're saying is Rob has a slot available for me to go and start leaning on him more. Is
Speaker 2 00:34:40 That what you No, it's funny, like Rob, Rob, Rob coached me for a little bit, I think before he even started Tiny seat. And then he was like, yeah, tiny seed, yep. Blah, blah, blah. Uh, and then I worked with Ad Pinar for a while and that was amazing until he started business. Right? Uh, so like I keep getting dropped by folks who have better stuff to do than than listen to me bitch about business every other week
Speaker 3 00:35:04 Too
Speaker 2 00:35:04 Funny. That's funny. Alright, how about, uh, how about another one for you?
Speaker 3 00:35:07 So I would say the other thing that I found, especially here, uh, between kind of Black Friday and now I've been in the past, what I've done is I kind of leave my quarterly planning to the last minute or maybe a couple weeks late into the quarter. And I didn't really give it, I mean, I gave it some time, but I feel like I kind of rushed it and it was just sort of like, it was a check check box I just had to get done so I could keep going with the business, right? Like it wasn't, it wasn't a plan process and I wasn't really giving the contemplative consideration time that I really feel like I might have missed out on. And so this year I've kind of given myself permission to like, let this take several weeks. And I'm glad that I have, because I've been, I, I had earmarked a bunch of things that I, I had tagged earlier in the year and said, when it comes to the annual review, I need to come back and look at this, come back to the annual review and think about this one thing.
Speaker 3 00:36:15 Oh, here's an idea that somebody else is doing. You should look at that in your annual review to see if that's appropriate for recapture next year. So I sat down one week and I like went through all of those things and I took a bunch of notes and then I set it aside and I let it kind of steep for another week. And then I came back and then I started throwing things on a spreadsheet and I started doing the rice scoring on there about like customer impact, uh, you know, trying to remember all the things in the rice acronym basically
Speaker 2 00:36:48 Impact confidence, uh, and effort.
Speaker 3 00:36:51 Effort, yeah. Yeah. Reach impact, confidence and effort. Thank you. You think for as much as I was staring at bed, I wasn't paying attention to headers, I was looking at the damn numbers, but I was using that to sort of gauge like, okay, what is it? If I did these things with recapture, would I move the needle? So I took all the ideas I had generated throughout the year. I took all the things that I had tagged in my email and all the bookmarks I had from Twitter and I threw 'em into this spreadsheet and I put some numbers on it. And then I came out with kind of some surprising things that have, cuz you know, that recency bias, you're always talk, you, you just talked about, I get that all the time too. Like, oh, somebody just talked about that I should do this in the business.
Speaker 3 00:37:32 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, oh, somebody's reading this book, I should read that right now. And I, I get totally caught up in that all the time. But by taking this time and having done the previous analysis, take a bunch of notes, then do the rice analysis, go through the scores and I'm like, huh, that didn't turn out as high as I thought it did. And I thought that was gonna be a needle mover. Huh. That one's really surprising. I didn't think it would be as high up on the list as it was. Wow. And then set that aside. So like, it gave me, it, it basically became like a weekly exercise of do this thing and then sit with it for a while and then I come back to it with fresh eyes. And so now I'm coming into like the last week of the year and I'm actually gonna do the full annual planning, do the rocks and all of this with this other stuff that's already kind of done. And I tried to cram it all into like one day's time and it always felt a little forced. Uh, and so this year, going into that, going into 2023 with that, I'm now gonna try to carry that same planning process forward. Um, I don't know what it looks like on the quarterly side yet. Uh, this was the first time I did the annual side this way. Uh, but it, it felt very different. It felt more intentional and it felt like I was actually being c e o like <laugh>, if that's a thing, you know?
Speaker 2 00:38:58 Yeah. Man, I, I, yeah. I love it. I, I think that discipline, right? And like developing that muscle is, is really important. I, I can relate for sure. I look at people who I consider to be like really successful, like founder operator CEOs and they've all got this <laugh>, you know, like they've all figured this shit out. And I think that's the next step. Like to whatever degree, uh, we, we both need to like take that step. I think that's the, that's the next thing is like how to be smart about how we spend our time and then just fucking doing it. You know, like none of this stuff is super complicated. It's really hard, but content marketing is not complicated. It's just doing it consistently for five years, that is what you have to do. Um, and I think that most of, most of this is the same way. You know, like I think that the best thing we can do is just keep doing it for a lot of, a lot of business.
Speaker 3 00:40:02 Yeah. Yeah. Grit, uh, hanging in there, just chipping away at that stone being the river that's slowly wearing the rock away. You know, at some point the river wins. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:40:14 <affirmative>, my other one is not work related, but I've been much more aware of my kind of personal health and mostly, I mean, physical health, but, but mental health too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Both, I guess. Worked with a therapist for part of the year.
Speaker 3 00:40:33 Nice.
Speaker 2 00:40:34 Don't work with them anymore, like consciously. And that was great. Kind of like taught me to fish, right? Like understand myself, uh, from an emotional level a lot more now. And then in the last four months or so, really paying attention to my physical health, which is awesome. And like, I'm up at five 15 every morning to go to the gym and pretty much don't drink anymore. And like, just a lot of good shit and like, feel awesome and then like it carries over to everything, right? It carries over to work. And I feel good about work cuz I'm not fucking hungover or whatever. And like, actually here for my family in the evenings and like able to do shit that I couldn't do before, like physically not, I mean, I'm a pretty active person, but like way more than I ever was. So Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:41:32 Like definitely it's one of those things, like it's the journey, you know, it's kind of like business, right? It's like it's never gonna be over. It's just like a habit and a part of life and just like how I am. And, and I hope very much that like, that's true. That like, this is just how I am and that, like, I'm a super healthy person that's 42. Um, and not, and I was pretty intentional about like, I'm not gonna go on, you know, fucking paleo diet or whatever that I'm gonna burn out on in two weeks or I'm gonna go do CrossFit and like literally almost kill myself and throw up every time I go <laugh>. But like, but like things that are sustainable, things that like yeah. Are just me now. And yeah, it's pretty cool. I went to a conference a couple of months ago and I had one drink the entire like three day conference and worked out three days in a row while I was there. And I was like, that's so cool. Like I'm, I was so proud of myself and I'm here, I'm 42, like being proud of myself and not being an idiot, but like, yeah, it was, it was pretty cool.
Speaker 3 00:42:41 Nice. Nice. Yeah, I mean in 2022 that became a year. I prioritized my health quite a bit. Uh, uh, you know, I actually, I'll I'll go ahead and share this on the podcast. I don't think I've actually said anything about it publicly, but I went in for my annual physical back in April and they did the blood test and they came back and said, Hey Dave, your pre-diabetes marker is up for the second year in a row, <laugh>. And I said, what? Uh, and they said, yeah, so you could do a couple of things. One is you could go on a diet and exercise change. And I'd already thought, you know, that I'd made some changes with exercise. So I was kind of surprised to see this, but they said the other po possibility was to go on medication for the rest of your life. And I was like, Nope.
Speaker 3 00:43:34 Yeah, the first time you hear those words in the doctor's office, uh, for me it was certainly very life changing. And so at that point I made a very conscious decision this year to radically alter my diet. Um, so, you know, I, we didn't go full paleo, but I cut way down on carbs, way down on cars. Like they are just not my friends anymore. Which is sad because I love carbs because they are your friends. Like nobody's business <laugh>. They are my friends. They're, they have been my best friends for 53 years at this point, but sadly, um, they, uh, they are getting more out of the relationship than I am. And so yeah, I had to, I had to make a big change. So I upped my exercise to five, six days a week, cut back on drinking as well. Uh, I didn't go to zero, but it's, you know, one glass on one on two nights of the weekends and that's it. Yeah. Nice. Um, and you know, I can't, like, I'm not doing beer anymore, too high carbs. It's strictly wine. And I lost 30 pounds, man. Dude,
Speaker 2 00:44:39 That's
Speaker 3 00:44:39 Massive. So it was massive and I feel great and I'll tell you at, at 53, that is gold right there. And I went back to the doctor later to get retested and they were like, holy shit, you're fine Now what did you do? <laugh> <laugh>. And I told them and they're like, nobody does that. That's awesome. I'm like, I did. Uh, it was, you know, it was a little bit of work, but, uh, okay. But I feel great. And, and feeling like that is, is huge, especially at our age. Like it's not gonna get, bodies aren't gonna get stronger and younger and more flexible and in better shape just naturally from here on out. Like it is all work. It is strictly uphill. Yeah. And you either put the time in and you suffer a lot less for it or you really suffer. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:45:31 <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:45:31 Yep. Those are your choices. So yeah, I mean, I had to prioritize the same thing this year and it's awesome to hear that, uh, that you benefited, uh, as much as I did. So congratulations man.
Speaker 2 00:45:43 Yeah, dude. Likewise, likewise. I'm sorry to hear the news, but glad to hear that you're on the good side of it, so that's super cool, man.
Speaker 3 00:45:48 Yeah. Well I wanted to make sure I was gonna be around for a very long time. This, uh, <laugh>, it's a little short to be, uh, exiting here in your early fifties.
Speaker 2 00:45:58 Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:45:58 I hear so didn't want. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:45:59 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Nice. Nice. Well, Dave, it's super good to catch up. Nice to kind of recap some of the end of the year. I feel like we have a couple more we could get through. Maybe we'll save that for another episode, uh, and do a part two of kind of our year end wrap up. But yeah, always good to catch up. For folks who loved the episode, please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. You can hit Dave and uh, I up on Twitter if you would like. We're both relatively present there, as long as it's <laugh> still around
Speaker 3 00:46:30 For now.
Speaker 2 00:46:32 Elon doesn't kill it. Yeah. Who, okay, Dave, quick hot take. Who will be the next CEO of Twitter?
Speaker 3 00:46:37 Ooh, ooh, uh, Aaron Levy Box.
Speaker 2 00:46:40 Oh, interesting. I had heard the Facebook HR person, Cheryl Sandberg.
Speaker 3 00:46:49 Oh, Cheryl Sandberg. Yeah. There's a lot of rumors floating around. Yeah, it'll probably, probably somebody will be like, ah, fuck it, let's bring Jack back. You know? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:46:56 That's definitely not gonna happen. I don't think that would be cool, but I, I know, I know. I don't think my, Ooh, can I leave with this? Uh, I'm not gonna leave with, I'm gonna save some hot drama for next time. I, I have a conspiracy theory. Oh, okay. All right. I have a hot conspiracy theory about Elon Musk. Okay. So we'll leave that as the teaser for next episode. Uh, everyone, happy holidays, uh, enjoys the time off with your family and loved ones, and we will see you next year.
Speaker 1 00:47:20 Thanks for listening to another episode of Rogue Startups. If you haven't already, head over to iTunes and leave a rating and review for the show. For show notes from each episode and a few extra resources to help you along your journey, head over to rogue startups.com to learn more.
