Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:08 Welcome to the rogue startups podcast, where two startup founders are sharing lessons learned and pitfalls to avoid in their online businesses. And now here's Dave and Craig,
Speaker 1 00:20 Welcome to another episode of Rovy startups, uh, sorry for the bit of a hiatus that we've been on, but, uh, there's just been a lot going on in the world lately. And Dave and I thought it was kind of appropriate to take a bit of time off from the podcast, but this week I'm back with a good friend, uh, Moritz Dow singer. And, uh, we're going to be kind of talking through his journey as a founder, um, both with some, some early successes and then some things he's learned here in the last, uh, year or so with, uh, his new venture. So Maurice, how's it going?
Speaker 2 00:50 Hey Greg, thanks a lot for, and what drew me to rock startup project?
Speaker 1 00:54 My pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. So we've known each other for golly three or four years, I guess we met at sass stock in Dublin few years ago and have been kind of chatting pretty regularly since then, but yeah, I thought it'd be fun to, to kind of chat through a bit of your story. Yeah. Like I said, kind of some, some things that you did before and having two pretty successful exits and then kind of what you're up to now with refiner, but, um, for folks who kind of don't know you and, and kind of what you're up to, you want to give kind of a bit of a backstory on yourself.
Speaker 2 01:24 Yeah, sure. And yeah, I think you're right. It's like three years ago, I have this t-shirt of SAS doc 2007, which I'm still wearing from time to time.
Speaker 1 01:34 Wow.
Speaker 2 01:35 So, uh, yeah, so, um, I think most people who know me know me because I had to more or less well known SAS products, which I was, um, growing up the last couple of years, the first one, which just, uh, is called may parser. And the second one is basically the sister application of that, which is called doc parser may pass. I started in 2015 or let's say like this 2015, I went full time on it. The project actually started in 2014, may parser is a data processing app, basically an API product used by tech savvy people. Not really, not just developers, but developers and tech savvy people, people who using also things like safe here and all kinds of workflow automation tools, and some may parts of started as a side project while I was still working full time. And to be honest, I was not having a lot of ambitious goals for it, but it turned out to become a really nice success in. And, um, so after a couple of months I decided to go full time on it. That was 2015. After that two years later, I launched doc parser and I grew both apps to the point where it was able to sell them in two. Like it was the whole selling process was a little bit long, but let's say it was 2018. Yeah. And then since then, um, uh, I did a little break and I'm working on a new venture right now, which just called where you find her
Speaker 1 03:13 And with the, like with doc parser and mail parser, uh, you mentioned that they were kind of like successful exits what, like looking back now, what, w what is your, like, in retrospect, what is your kind of perception of kind of deciding to sell those and what it, what it meant for kind of your future and your ability to kind of do different things and maybe different things that you wanted to do, like outside of those spaces? Cause it's been a couple of years now, right?
Speaker 2 03:42 Yeah. Yeah. It's been a couple of years. So basically when I went full time on my may parcel, that was the time when I also realized that this is the thing I build has, well, you there's a market for it. It's an upcoming market actually. And seems like it was really, I was positioned pretty well in this market because it was usually a markets reserved to bigger enterprise customers and solutions, which were catering to those folks. And I came into the market with a solution, which was for small and medium sized businesses who also then, uh, as I mentioned before, or using, uh, solutions like save here to automate their workflow. So I was in a position where I had a software, well positioned in a market where people were willing to pay. And I wasn't the only one, but it was definitely a little bit ahead of the curve, both of those products.
Speaker 2 04:39 And so when I realized that I definitely also asked myself, where should this journey go and how big of a company I want to create. And it's not that I can manage to do it, but for just to set a goal for myself and pretty quickly, I actually thought, you know, like given my personal circumstances with having young kids and wanting to buy an apartment and all this kind of stuff, I thought, well, the way I would define success for me for may parts and dock parts is basically to be able to sell them one day so that I can secure my, my entrepreneur journey going forward. And this is exactly what happened. So I now, you know, as a, as you know, I'm building a refiner and I'm still basically doing the stuff I did before building software products from scratch, but it's definitely this first exit allowed me to, to approach building refinance in a different way. It's like just little bits, more means they have a little bit more power behind it. You can do more stuff and you don't need to. Yeah. I work nights and weekends and all this kind of stuff. So I feel like I'm still working in the same way than before, but definitely this ex those two exits changed the way I can approach all this right now.
Speaker 1 06:07 Hmm. Hmm. I mean, that's like an extension of a lot of the freedom that a lot of us are going for, I think is like, we start all of this. Cause we think that, you know, being an entrepreneur and all this will give us more freedom versus an independence and like control over our destiny, then having a day job. And I think we get to that point. And then like, it sounds like selling locked that in for you for like the longer term. Is that kinda how you were thinking about it?
Speaker 2 06:33 Yeah, exactly. It was basically I'm taking chips off the table, like a cave for, but this kind of software I could, I could definitely continue. I'm maintaining and growing the software and it's, to be honest, not what gets me really excited. So I'm more of a product guy. I love the new stuff like everybody else. But anyhow, like I think I was able to build a lot of value in the beginning because I'm a developer myself, but I'm not necessarily a really, really good company builder in the sense of managing people, hiring a big team and doing all the building, those pyramids of the hierarchies and so on. So, um, I basically, I was more or less maybe it was, I think it was pretty negative to be honest, but I was convinced that I can do it again and I can recreate again, a lot of value within two or three years by building a software, bringing it to the market, bringing it to a pro uh, product market fits. And then, uh, yeah, like getting, it started to a point where I would say, okay, now my job as a software, early stage stuff, and an engineer it's done now, somebody else put to take it over. So there was the idea basically is for me to say, my strong suit is lounging, going to initial product market fit. My strong suit is however, not continuing to grow a software for 10 years and building a huge team around it.
Speaker 1 08:01 And I think that's a good segue into kind of the, the things you've learned since kind of selling. I want to get into kind of where refiner is and what the path there has been like. But, but I think before that, it's like a big question on a lot of people's mind and like mine even like, even like I project forward and think about, you know, if I sold Castillo's one day, what would I do then? You know, I think that's like part of the, the deterrent for me of even thinking about selling right now is I have no idea what I would do with my time or focus and money, you know, maybe even like, what was that like decision making process for you like to say, like, okay, I went from, you know, this thing that you mentioned, like you, you liked the business, but maybe not like the place you operated in and like, you know, email and document parsing and PDFs is not like super exciting. Like it's not the next Twitter, but like, how did you think about, okay, now I can do anything. I want, I'm going to go attack this problem in this space.
Speaker 2 08:56 But to be completely honest, like when I went out of the last, uh, adventure, which underneath to correct you there, I actually liked the email parsing document. It's very techie. It's an interesting, you know, a certain way, but yeah, definitely it was not something which I see myself as a life mission for the next coming 30 years. Um, but anyways, so when, when I ended this, um, adventure with doc parser, I was basically pretty confident that I've figured it all out. I know how to build SAS. I know how to go to market. I, I basically just need to do it again and again and again, this is basically, I thought I found my model and my model is being a company builder and the, in this, in the early stages and just doing it over and over again, because this is what I actually enjoy doing, like breaking products, finding the first customers and so on.
Speaker 2 09:55 And, um, yeah, I mean, you reach out from time to time, you know, the story a little bit, but, uh, things can different. Let's say this. I basically, I mean, I was transitioning out of doc parcels. So the deal was with the buyer that I will continue operating the software for a certain amount of time until a milestone is reached. And then I can, so in the end I was basically working at just a couple of hours per week on dock power. So, but it was not working there full time anymore. And so I was also not in the mood of saying, okay, I'm making a full break because I still was working a couple of hours per week for doc passer. So I thought, well, the best thing I can do is just build a new software. And yeah, so I started building refiner and refiner started as a simple idea and it became over time, bigger and bigger and more complex. And I changed directions and all this I think happened just because I actually didn't find some initial attraction and some first paying customers. So instead of asking myself how questions that I just continued to buy upping software, and this is, I mean, this is a beginner's mistake. This is, I mean, but anyway, it happened. So yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I think I lost track of your question. I'm not sure if I'm
Speaker 1 11:22 No. So I mean, I think that's, that's a good, that's a good, like, I have a clarification about that is, is, like you said, it started out as something simple and turned into something very complex and you have been doing this long enough to know that like, just building more features and all this without knowing like exactly what your customers need and what other things are in the market is like what we should be doing. But, but I think that's really hard sometimes. And I know like, cause we talk kind of regularly that you do too. And that like add a point, the whole customer development model is wrong, I think. Right. Cause like you can't customer develop without something these days. And if you customer develop too long, then you've spent six or 12 months building something that people don't want. And it like, what, what did you like looking back now? What did you learn about kind of how you manage that balance of like build, build, build, because you have to have something to show people or do customer development to figure out what they really want and then go build it. Um, cause I think he can't do both like, so lawn it's a compromise
Speaker 2 12:25 It's I mean, it's really funny because you know, like, uh, I was, um, talking with a couple of, uh, young entrepreneurs who were asking me for advice and I basically was preaching all the time. Like, okay, if you don't have something with an initial traction, don't just add more features. It will not help. You need to iterate, maybe change the angle a little bit, um, salad differently and so on and so on until you have something and if you have something you can then definitely add more features and make it more powerful. So this is, I think the point where I got lost a little bit, instead of having something, if people want it, uh, I just, we're trying to compensate that by adding more features on it. And so today, um, I really tried to internalize this every week, sending your kit let's, let's keep the products, but we can, we can make it a bigger and bigger later on when once, once there is traction, but until there's no traction, I can, I mean, I can come up with any kind of feature ideas like, and I can build them, but then who tells me that they are actually needed.
Speaker 2 13:41 So, um, I think there's this feedback loop with early customers is so essential basically. I think once you have 10 people using your app and there are fans and they're, they, they like what you're doing, it feels like the hardest part is done. I mean, not the hardest part of the whole story, but one really, really difficult part is done, which is like, you have something in your hands and then you can build on, uh, based on customer feedback. And so
Speaker 1 14:13 For you, uh, like that, that journey to, you know, like a critical mass of customers has been like harder than you thought, what do you think contributed to that?
Speaker 2 14:23 I think I'm one, I mean, that's give you some context. First, a refiner is a user feedback and customer survey tool. And I started it as a user feedback and customer survey tool in the beginning because I needed, uh, that for my own while growing dock parcel. So basically I was I'm scratching my own itch. So when with doc parser, we had a incoming stream, like a pretty good stream of inbound leads every day, a lot of account creations, freemium, I don't know, back then it was free trial users testing all the software. And within those free trial users were a couple of guys, which we thought could become really big accounts. So we wanted to reach out to them in a, let's say inside sales kind of way, just to make really short that these guys, the big guys are, um, experiencing, um, having a good experience and that we are handholding them.
Speaker 2 15:29 So what I build for doc parser, what I built myself or some kind of inept survey, which would pop up after five minutes asking two simple questions. And in the case of doc parts, that was how many documents do you process per months? And what type of documents are you processing? And with the answer to those SIM two simple questions, we are then able to identify good leads on our end, which we would want to, uh, Paul. And so basically I was looking for this kind of inept survey solution, which would allow me to do that. And I didn't really find what I was looking for. So I thought I going to build that. So I was starting the project by being convinced that if I need that a lot of different people should need that. And, um, then I was, I don't know why somehow getting away from this idea and I edit, um, because my use case was lead scoring.
Speaker 2 16:34 In this case, you know, I'm asking questions to identify good leads. So I don't know why I actually stopped with this whole surveys and focused entirely on lead scoring. And then I spent several months, nearly one year trying to build a lead scoring solution for SAS until the point that I did a full stop beginning of the year and saying, okay, somehow I don't know how I got derailed. And, um, what I actually wanted to build is a custom survey solution. So let's go back there. That's what I actually also did in the beginning of the year, I did a full Pivo let's if you can call it the people and went back to customer service, and since then I'm working on customer service and it's actually working good. But, um, I actually have difficulties answering the question of why I got derailed. Like somehow I thought it's not enough. I need to, um, make it even bigger. And the value is somewhere else. The value is not in capturing data. Their value is in crunching the data, but turned out that this was not correct. So I think I was maybe just a little bit too much in the mindset of, Oh yeah, no, I know it I'm I figured it out. I built a couple of software businesses before I should know it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 17:53 So yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the, the, the kind of curse of success or the curse of knowledge is real. Like you, yeah, you've done it once before. Oh, I can just, you know, make this and talk to customers and give them what they want and all this kind of stuff. And I think like I saw this with sales camp is like, the market is there, the need is validated. And like for whatever reason, like I just couldn't make it work. And I don't know, I don't know why that is, but I think sometimes like you can get the right founder in the wrong place or something for her, like a problem, because I mean, there are other tools doing what you were talking about with like, uh, lead lead scoring and lead qualification for kind of higher end SAS. But I think part of it is like this product founder fit that people talk about is like, that might not be what you want. They're like, you can't relate to the people having that problem maybe, or you don't want to operate in that space or something. I think sometimes that can be kind of why some of us have hard time aligning that really well.
Speaker 2 18:51 Totally agree with you there. So basically my strong suit with what I think what worked pretty well for me in what may Parson doc Pasa was offering a self service SAS pre techie self services. So we needed to do some hand holding in there, but it was still a set of services in a market where usually there were not many self service solutions. And, um, so I was, would say, I'm more like this inbound marketing. So service guy, you know, and now with a refiner, when I did lead scoring, I basically made it the solution more and more complex. So it became some kind of a kind of solution, which you did, you cannot sell in just in self service because there's actually, probably not that much search going on on Google first of all, to, to create a massive amount of traffic. And secondly, it's, it's just so complex.
Speaker 2 19:52 So, and then, and this would mean I would need to do outreach, going to, trying to find leads on my own, then trying to show them the value of the product and then doing the whole enterprise is sales a dance. And there are people who can do that. And there are then people like me who don't like doing that, or don't cannot do it. And so what you said with this, there's definitely a product market fit. Okay. But like this, um, founder product fit, that's real like, uh, I mean, if you are building a, I don't know, but he goes many ways, you know, it goes in the, in the way that maybe you can build a, you're building an enterprise software, but you're not made for selling enterprise software, but it can also go in a different way. Maybe you are an engineer can build super complex crate stuff, but you want to sell it in a cool way, like Dropbox and then it's it.
Speaker 2 20:55 People would just not take it like it's not authentic. You know? So, um, I feel like with, for example, what I'm doing right now with refiner today is it's, uh, also very conscious choice that I want to serve too startups, which have initial traction and are going to scale, but I don't want to sell to the scallops and I don't want to sell to 'em like, um, they get $9 per month plan. So, um, did a Wallace conscious choice to say, okay, this is the segment of the market. I feel comfortable in where I can do marketing where I can also do some kind of sales through customer support, but it's definitely not where I need to build presentations, reach out to, um, somebody on LinkedIn trying to identify who in this company is taking care of that and that topic. So, um, yeah, I think that that's there there's so many parameters like, okay, product market fit, founder, market, founder, product fit, maybe also found a market fit, all this kind of stuff. And, you know, in theory, does this also explainable, but when you're in there, um, yeah, I mean, you know, it always afterwards, but when you're in there, it's super tough to see those patterns.
Speaker 1 22:15 Yeah. Yeah. And I don't, yeah. I don't think that it's possible to, to see that in, in like entirely before you get started with a product, because like on the surface you can say, okay, you know, this is a, a medium or low touch product. Like ours is at us. You know, we talked to some customers, we have a lot of customers that, you know, go to the website, sign up and pay and all that kind of stuff. And that's, that's fine. I don't, but I don't think you can know that entirely up front. Cause probably like you said, what, what you ran into is that like refiner started pretty simply and then moved pretty quickly to like an enterprise B2B. Like you have to get on the phone to talk to everybody to understand what they're trying to do and integrate into their CRM and all this kind of stuff. And that's, that's kind of just the, the, the, the evolution of the product, like as you, as you got closer to product market fit, probably.
Speaker 2 23:06 Yeah. I mean, there's also like, uh, I think maybe if I would have done my homework a little bit more throughout, I would have seen all that before really starting the, or like going full time on the product. Um, but I'm, I'm working a little bit different than, um, I mean, that's the test the way I'm working. Like for me, it's like, ah, I see some vague idea of an opportunity. And then basically my, I see my work and just going forward, forward forward and trying to figure out what is it exactly what's missing here and what needs to be done. And I do it because having an engineering background by building products, other people might do it by just doing hundreds of interviews. So I th I think everybody has his approach there, you know, like, um, but it's definitely, it's super important to be conscious about the fact that you can have hundreds of good ideas.
Speaker 2 24:04 It doesn't matter as long as there's not a real market need. And, and then, so yeah, this is usually defined by paying customers. So, um, yeah. Uh, it's, it's difficult to find the balance between being convinced that there's something to do and you have your, uh, longterm product vision, which you, which you think is so good and so awesome. And then do you have the reality of the market when the market tells you? Okay, now actually nobody likes that, but maybe they need that. And then, so it's very difficult to find a good balance between those two.
Speaker 1 24:43 Um, we talk a lot about, um, like product led growth and I, that's kind of the, the space that you're going in with refiner at this point, like for folks who maybe haven't heard of product led growth, what, like, what's your definition of that?
Speaker 2 24:59 Yeah. Um, to be honest, I think product led growth is just more or less a new word for freemium, a free trial, but it's a bit, so there's nothing really new about all this. It's just more or less a word, which is giving us a framework on how to sell software. And so the idea there is that, um, let's say, uh, back in the days, enterprise software or software for bigger companies was sold by. So through human contact, like you reach out to them, you have meetings, you do presentations and show all the value and so on and so on. And so the idea behind product led growth is that you, that the product is doing most of that. So basically you're building products which, uh, easy to adopt even by bigger enterprise customers, but just more or less lurking them in, into the product with freemium or free trials.
Speaker 2 25:56 And then you might, uh, say, okay, but freemium and free trial products are not for big enterprise customers, but that's really not true as we see it, whether it's Slack or if also Dropbox or, I mean, I think Slack is probably the incarnation of product led growth. So they, I think, I don't know what the, really the numbers, but I think like they do one third of their revenue with enterprise customers, which is not something you would expect if you see the software like that. Um, but it's definitely a, they somehow managed to build a software, which is easy to adopt, but still then they manage to yeah. Go into those direction, fortune 500 companies. Mm mm. So, and this is product net growth of meters combining, uh, like basically letting the, the product speak for itself as quick as possible. And the, this is mostly done with freemium or free trial offers.
Speaker 1 27:02 And at this point with, with kind of refinery, where in the like product market fit spectrum, do you feel like you are?
Speaker 2 27:12 Hmm, that's a pretty good question. I feel like what I see and what I can say, what I see is that it goes to the right interior. So it's going slowly, but it's more every week. And also what is completely different than a bit be compared to 2019. I have people writing me. I have a support tickets. I am interacting with customers. They asked me for that. And sometimes the questions are really good. Sometimes I feel like, Oh, they didn't actually understand what the product is about. So I feel like I have something going, you know, like this is, this is so different to what I felt like in 2019 where it's basically you build something and there's just silence, and now I'm building something. Right. And you said about it, people are can back to me. And so I think now it's like, there's a lot of work to be done.
Speaker 2 28:05 So, but the machine is, the train is rolling somehow. And for example, to give you a okay, cook read example about refinance, a refiner started for me as a survey tool, which would allow you to ask two or three simple questions to then quantify needs. Okay. But this is just one use case, but the much bigger use cases actually doing, um, just really standard, um, research, like user research, like asking questions, like how did you hear about our solution or what kind of feature would you need most on a scale of one to 10? How likely would you recommend or a product and so on? So there's so many use cases around, uh, in episode bays and I was starting with this one and now I just discovered this whole, I don't know what this whole, uh, topic of customer research and user research. And so I'm basically positioning refund today as a user feedback and customer survey tool.
Speaker 2 29:11 Like they are hundreds on the market and this is for me a good sign. There's a well defined category. These products exist since years and years. However, I'm doing that exactly and specialized for SAS businesses, because I think SAS businesses have a unique setup and it's different than an eCommerce store. And it's different than a realtor websites. So surveys, popups service, which were built maybe four, four websites and anonymous, anonymous traffic, they might appear like the service I'm offering will be finer, but it's a completely different approach because for me, with refiner, you are, you are launching those services, surveys, insights, um, your product inside your SaaS product. And so it means you can tie those responses to the user. And you can say this user answered like that. So I want to send him a follow up email, or I want to segment my users and saying, I'm just looking at the responses of my best users, the ones on the higher tier plan, or, you know, like it opens up so many new things and all this I discovered during the last, um, say three months.
Speaker 2 30:28 And so, yeah, I'm feeling really confident about, uh, that I'm, I'm learning a lot from the market and I'm not just making it up. I'm just learning it from people. So that's really good. And, um, I feel like I'm what started a little bit esoteric becomes more and more, very like, Oh yeah. I mean, yeah. It's customer research. This is a topic which exists since years and years, and I just need to attack it from a different angle. So, um, well, it's not that I'm having a software in hyper growth in, uh, in front of me, but it's definitely, um, uh, as I said before, a train, which started rolling. So that's, that's good.
Speaker 1 31:15 I like this trend and maybe it's just a trend cause I'm just, I think it's a trend cause I'm just going to realizing it. But there is this space in like the data we get that is really specific to a user level and like a specific user and at scale, you know, you think about things like Stripe or ProfitWell or Google analytics, they're like big cohort level things. And it's tough to say like, yeah, like, like you're talking about like this user or the users on my highest tier plan answered this survey about where they found us in this way and that's different than, or for users or our customers that churn a lot. And then like that lets you inform a lot of your marketing and, and customer acquisition decisions. Um, we are just starting to do some of this now and it's, it's actually kind of hard to do with a lot of the tools that are out there.
Speaker 1 32:08 We're uh, uh, cool. Uh, one of the tiny seed group, two batches, uh, called SEG metrics, segment.io does this for like, uh, attribution, which we talked about on the show. And I know we've talked about Maurizio and I like one on one that they do. Like they kind of connect ad words and Stripe together. Uh, essentially that's the good stuff. And so that's just another example of like, you can, you can run those kinds of level of granularity reports and say like for these best users, what characteristics they have and for my customers that are having the highest amount of problems, like the churn or whatever, what kind of problems were they having or where did they come from or, or whatever. And I think that that seems to be a trend for me, or at least something that we're kind of learning these days. And that's really impactful when, when you can get that data at a scale where you can say, this is not just one person I heard from, you know, cause like that vocal minority is really dangerous. I think if you listen to that vocal minority, they take you in a direction that's not healthy for the business, but if you can get dozens or hundreds of people saying the same thing in a group that's that's magic.
Speaker 2 33:12 Yeah. I think that you're totally right. I mean, there's this, I mean, for sure there are different levels of feedback. You have like small amounts of feedback from five users can be super valuable if it's a qualitative, if they write you in their own words, what they think. And then there's however, I think what was really the interest is this averaging data. So just looking at all your users, asking all your users the same question and then say, well, on average they answered like that. Yeah. What you really, really want to do is segment those users like, and this you can just do by attaching those data points, you have to your user account and then you can do really magic stuff like saying, okay, well actually I want to bring my software a little bit upmarket. So let's just look at my higher tier users.
Speaker 2 34:04 What do they value? What do, where did they find me? And so I feel like this is where the real power comes in. If you're able to segment your user base. And I mean, they're great tools like he was analytics who look at the activity in your app, for example, you could say, well, uh, people on my higher tier plan are using these kinds of features and you can measure that. That that's great. Then what refiner does is basically it will allow you in, in this case to tell you, well, people in my higher tier plan are valuing this and this and they're thinking this and that. And um, so this is where I'm definitely want to position refiner in the analytics space. It's, it's a survey tool. It's a, it's a something that helps you capture insights from your customers, but it's not on an average a wall.
Speaker 2 34:59 It allows you to really segment and it's not just the usage and you can really actually ask any kind of question. And this is where I'm can be really powerful too, to some kind of ad hoc campaigns saying, okay, wait, before, before we start building this feature, let's just do survey, run a survey on our users if they actually would like to have that feature or not. And, but it can also be implemented in a way that it's like an always on thing, for example, uh, what a lot of our users do right now are in-app NPS surveys. So those things where they ask you, how likely would you our solution to a friend from zero to 10, if the user answer is nine or 10, then they would automatically receive an email saying, Hey, thanks. That's so good that you are liking a product.
Speaker 2 35:52 Could you maybe write a review on this and this website? Or could you maybe, um, do you have maybe a friend who could also benefit from, um, our app? So basically this is some kind of always on survey, which becomes part of your growth machine. So it's basically just every day sending out, uh, two or three emails to your biggest fans asking them if they can help you in some way with the growth and the other way round, for example, if they answer, um, no, they, they, they don't like your app. Then you could ask follow up questions automatically with a multiple choice saying, okay, why, why is it, where can we do better? Are you maybe not satisfied with the customer service? Are you don't you like the pricing and so on and so on? So I think, um, there are just so many use cases and I'm actually having a call today with a friend who could hopefully help me writing down all those, what I call playbooks or in app surveys. So, um, coming back to your initial question about the product market fit, I think, um, uh, there's so much still to learn, but I, I see so many different playbooks and ways how you can use those enough surveys so that I'm pretty excited about the next month.
Speaker 1 37:14 Awesome. Awesome. Very cool. Very cool. Well, it was great to catch up and, and kind of hear a little more of the, kind of the journey of, you know, building and selling and starting again and kind of where you are now with refiner. Thanks for, thanks for sharing the story. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 37:29 Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. And uh, I think, uh, you know, like if there's one takeaway from all this, it's like, I built many, many software products before some of them successful some not, and it's just every time again and again, challenging, but this is also, what's good about it. This is what I like about it. And, but yeah, so, so if I can share my learnings with your listeners, that's always a pleasure. And so thanks a lot for having me here.
Speaker 1 38:01 Awesome. My pleasure, my pleasure, and refiner.io for folks that want to chat with Moritz about going to INAP surveys and product feedback tools that he's building there and it's on Twitter, you are,
Speaker 2 38:13 And that was in R D a U S I N G E R and refund the day or, or Twitter. That's the place.
Speaker 1 38:22 Cool. Awesome. Thanks Maurice. Appreciate it. Okay, thanks. Have a good day. Bye.
Speaker 0 38:27 Thanks for listening to another episode of rogue startups. If you haven't already head over to iTunes and leave a rating and review for the show for show notes from each episode and a few extra resources to help you along your journey, head over to rogue startups.com to learn more <inaudible>.
