Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:08 Welcome to the rogue startups podcast. We're two startup founders are sharing lessons learned and pitfalls to avoid in their online businesses. And now here's Dave and Craig.
Speaker 1 00:19 All right, welcome to rogue startups. Episode two Oh seven. Craig, how are you? This fine week.
Speaker 2 00:27 I am good man. I'm good. We a little bit behind the scenes action. We went from recording like middle of the afternoon here and like morning your time to just after lunch, your time and evening my time. So, uh, you're getting a late at night Craig after a glass of wine on the podcast here for the foreseeable future. So we'll see if the content gets better or worse. But
Speaker 1 00:48 yeah, things are good. It's food coma, Dave and semi drunk Craig. So I think we're going to read that far, but we're going to, we're going to rebrand the cut the podcast now.
Speaker 2 00:58 Oh man. But now man, things are good. I have been, I've been surprisingly calm lately for no real good reason. I've been exercising a little more than I had like towards the latter part of last year. But yeah, I've been really calm, like working. I feel like smartly and not super stressed, which has been really nice. Kind of scary cause I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. But yeah.
Speaker 1 01:24 Yeah. On a mental health friend I have to say, you know, usually by this time of the winter, things are kind of starting to drag on me in a heavy way and I am happy to report this year that they are not as bad as usual. And I don't, you know, I don't know what single thing to attribute that to. I, I'd like to believe that it's being a little more mindful about making sure that all of the various things that I know I need are being taken care of. So I'm getting plenty of sleep. I'm taking my st John's wart, which is for seasonal effective disorder. In the mornings I have like a, a daylight lamp and I sit in front of it for at least a half an hour to make sure I get that light in my brain to sort of generate all the right chemicals. I'm getting, you know, regular exercise two to three times a week.
Speaker 1 02:14 And you know, not drinking that much alcohol. Like I feel like, you know, my wife and I were having this conversation earlier that she feels like she's hibernating right now because it's been cold, it's been snowing. We haven't really been able to like get out and do walks and be out in nature. And these are things that we very much love to do. And because she doesn't like cold and winter, she doesn't like to go skiing. Also our ankles are kind of fucked up so that doesn't help. But you know, I've been able to go out a little bit, did big snow, tiny comp going out with the kids this weekend. So you know, I feel like I'm in a pretty decent place for winter right now, which is a little surprising. Uh, and spring is literally around the corner at this point. Daylight savings time starts in like two weeks or something like that, which is cool. And then after that, you know, we actually get real spring, but that usually means that the doubling down on snow storms here in Colorado. Yeah. Cause we get our snow. Yes. Months in March and April and we have had a brutal winter out here. It started middle of October and it has not quit. I have not seen no snow on the ground at all except for maybe a week out of the entire time since the middle of October.
Speaker 2 03:29 Wow. Good for you. We're uh, we're just have the shittiest snow in termin. You've, I'm sure you've read like they're helicoptering snow in from the peaks and all this shit. Like resorts are closed and it's a disaster over here. We're supposed to get it for about the next week, starting early next week for, for like a week of snow, which is really good. But it's been a disaster here. Oh yeah. Well it's a good thing you didn't do a big snow tidy comp in France. Yeah, they would have been a mess. You know, interestingly on the, on the like the vitamins and the sunlight stuff, they give our kids, vitamin D supplements can a little pipette thing every year and they should take it at the beginning of winter, like the end of fall for a bone density. Yeah. Because you don't get like as much vitamin D and for us they say, you know, tough shit. But for the kids, yeah. They give them a supplement every year here, which is really interesting. It's about the only whatever non-natural thing they do here, I think that we've seen, but it seems to make good sense. So yeah,
Speaker 1 04:27 I've heard some mixed stuff about taking vitamin D as adults that uh, some people swear by it and other people are like, yeah, this does nothing. And then they have studies that say, all right, this didn't work. So I don't really know which side of that, you know, if you're cherry picking your data on both sides, everybody's lying. So you don't really know who to trust on that one. But yeah, I was taking it for a while thinking that would help with seasonal effective disorder, but it didn't really do much for me. So I, you know, my wife swears by it. I've stopped taking it since I'm just not, not feeling the love there.
Speaker 2 05:00 Try whiskey does, uh, does wonders until the next day. No.
Speaker 1 05:05 Yeah, yeah. That's, it's a very temporary fix. But it does work for a while. Yes. No, I actually have some leftover whiskey from big snow, tiny comp. So we've been enjoying that.
Speaker 2 05:16 So yeah, man, I am excited to talk about what we're talking about today. I think it'll be kind of a riff, but it's, it's a bit of a spin on a recent episode of the startup chat with Steli and Heaton. Is that right?
Speaker 1 05:31 Yup, yup. And they basically were having discussions about what in their lives, what events, what people helped shape them as entrepreneurs. And I thought, well this would be an interesting discussion for you and I to have and it would be very not the same as what Heaton and Steli went through. So yeah, let's, uh, let's talk about that.
Speaker 2 05:53 Yeah. So my dad was a self employed, he's a general contractor, so it built residential houses. And so just like growing up, it was, my mom stayed home with us until I was in like middle school. Uh, so it was just my dad that, you know, growing up, you know, my younger years was like the only one working out of the house. And, um, you know, I ha it's easy to say now like, Oh that really formed who I am because I definitely went and like joined the corporate workforce out of college. But I think that kind of just knowing that that's okay on like a first degree personal level like seeing that happen, you know, they had their ups and downs for sure. But overall we're successful and provided for us had the flexibility to be there at you know, soccer games and boy Scouts and all that kind of stuff. I think like gave me the mental flexibility to to say like, Hey this is okay. It worked for dad where I'm alive. He was happy, you know, we all did okay. That, that I think if you come from a, like a, a household where like entrepreneurship and being self employed is shunned that it makes that your decision a lot harder. So I think that's like the first thing that comes to mind for me.
Speaker 1 07:10 Yeah. So my background is very different. This is why I thought this conversation would be fairly interesting. So my parents were not particularly entrepreneurial and in fact, well I should, I should qualify that. So when I grew up in a very low end middle-class household, there was a point in our lives where my mom's was the only income we were making in when I was in high school and it was like $36,000 a year. So we were by no means rich, but you know, by no means were repour either. We had, there was always food on the table. We were able to get, you know, all the necessities that I had, but I wasn't able to like, you know, when my friend said, Oh yeah, we're doing such and such trip. And I'd be like, yeah, I can't do that because there just wasn't money to do that.
Speaker 1 08:01 So I bring this up because this was sort of like a key formative experience for me all throughout my childhood. There was just sort of like this theme of, well, we don't have enough money. Well we can't really afford that. Well, no. You know, you go to friends' houses and you see that they have very different things than you have. And so I felt like that somehow motivated me to want to be more economically successful than my parents. And in particular my mom, she actually got, so she was working for a couple of government agencies. She actually was a nutritionist by training and then got a master's in public health. So she became a, what they call sanitarian, which is a fancy name for a restaurant and pool inspector. So she worked for a health department, a County health department out in a government agency here in Colorado for a while.
Speaker 1 08:52 And then eventually that job later off and then she got another job with the city and County of Denver and she worked with them until retirement. So my mom was all about stability, the constant paycheck, health insurance, making sure that you know you have a job and like these were just the things that got hammered into me when I was in college. And my first job, like the biggest concern my mom had after I graduated was a, that I was going to have to move back home with them cause I didn't have a job. And B, once I got a job she's like, Oh thank God you have health insurance. Like beyond that she was okay if I just add those two things then it was suddenly, you know, everything else was fine. But yeah, I mean just her background was all about stability. Like she grew up on a farm, her dad, uh, was a farmer obviously and her mom was a school teacher until she retired and they just, they did their things and they did it slow and steady and methodical and it was very low risk and it was very, you know, anything that, that put the family into a platform of instability was definitely not something that was going to be a decision that they were going to make.
Speaker 1 10:05 So you know, and then my mom and dad got married and my dad had a different risk profile and he actually, both of them grew up on farms and didn't grow up with a lot themselves, although both of them did much better than their parents in terms of their financial situations. My dad was still more of a risk taker taker. He was in the military and after he graduated from the military, he worked for some start, well not startups, but they were like Lockheed and Martin Marietta and things like that as an electrical engineer. And then eventually he got laid off and then I started seeing him like try a bunch of different things. Now the interesting part here is when I tell you this story, you're going to think, well Dave, this should have totally should have dissuaded you from being an entrepreneur like ever because he just kept trying stuff, but it wouldn't stick like, and it was, some of them were odd jobs, some were business ideas.
Speaker 1 11:00 He tried to run a sprinkler install company. He tried to set up a lawn service. You know, he did things like delivering phone books and restocking the stores where they have the carpet cleaners and things like that. He took on a job with that. Just anything to try to make ends meet. But because there was always that financial instability or whatever, that's where the, Oh, we can't afford that. Oh, we can't really do that. You know, look at the things that your friends have and that you don't. So, you know, when my dad actually finally got a corporate job for like seven years, those were like the lucrative years in the road and ball household where I got my computer thankfully and some other things. So yeah, I mean it made up for, for a lot of the lean years, but it was just still an interesting mindset to see, you know, it's a poverty mindset, right? Where you don't have it. Everybody else does. How, how can I get that?
Speaker 2 11:53 <inaudible> <inaudible> so yeah, it's something that's interesting about, I think either situation, right? Or, or any situation that like you grow up a certain way and you either conform to it and just become just like your parents. And the same mindset as them or you rebel against it, right? Like, and I think it has to do with like entrepreneurship and parenting styles and compassion and stuff like that. Like I think I know of people, I won't say who that just had asshole parents. Right. And they are the most loving people on earth and vice versa. I have people I know people from really wonderful families that are just jerks and yeah, I wonder like, and every possible combination, right? Like so, so I wonder what it is that makes kind of, you say, you know, my dad tried this stuff and it didn't work and we got a day job.
Speaker 2 12:52 That's when everything started ticking. And then you say, I have this day job, I can consult and make really good money, but I'm going to go do this really hard thing and you know, try it for awhile and see if it works. I wonder what makes us say that. I, I don't know. I don't know. And I look back sometimes now and say like, I've been doing this for five years. Podcast motor is five years old now. In that time, how much just in terms of like financial wealth, like how much more could I have made sticking me my day job? And that's just one part of it. But um,
Speaker 1 13:26 sure, sure. I mean it's always about trade-offs, right? So I mean I entrepreneurship wasn't, you know, something that I was necessarily thinking about. For me it was kind of, it was more opportunistic I guess. So when I was in high school, the first, you know, aside from the lemonade stands, which I did that too. Um, you know, since I wanted some money and I didn't have a lot of opportunities to go out and make it, the lemonade stand seemed like an obvious one. Although, you know, in terms of your investment, uh, on return on investment there, it was absolutely terrible if you actually look at the total numbers on that one. But Hey, it was fun. But the one that I really sort of took my own risk on was the, I actually did a lawn service now remembering just a few minutes ago where I said my dad tried a lawn service and completely failed at this.
Speaker 1 14:15 You would think that a same person would say, Oh, well my dad did this. I shouldn't do it. Because he couldn't make it work either. But the thing was, I saw it, so I had a good friend of mine, Eric, I was always hanging out at his house playing Dungeons and dragons in high school. And his oldest brother Aaron actually had a lawn service with another guy that they went to school with. They were both seniors at the time and they were like kicking ass and taking names. You know, I'd see them coming in all the time from their lawn mowing. At the end of the day they were covered in grass and I'd be like, so how many lawns did you guys do? And they're like, Oh, I don't know. 13 or something like that. And I'm like, <inaudible>. Yeah. And you know, I just added it up like, okay, well how much would they charge for that?
Speaker 1 15:00 Oh wow, okay. And they're doing that five days a week. Oh wow. Okay. You know, I'm like, that's, that's actually some, some real money around the house. And so, you know, at the time that my dad lost his job when I was like a junior, sophomore or something like that in high school, uh, you know, money was definitely pretty scarce at that time. And you know, I'm looking at going to college definitely couldn't really look at anything fancy. My parents didn't have a ton that was saved up, which is to say that they had about a thousand bucks in a savings account somewhere. So, you know, it was, it was all on me. So it was scholarships and or whatever I could earn or nothing. And so, you know, I looked at this, I saw what these guys were doing. I'm like, I can do that too. I can mow a lawn for God six I know how to run a lawn mower.
Speaker 1 15:47 And you know, I just basically started up and said, all right dad, can I borrow the lawnmower and the truck? And you know, he was like, uh, sure. Okay. And I, you know, put out some flyers and I drummed up some business. Oh God, they were just miserable flyers too. I mean what I know about marketing now, they were just absolutely miserable. But I, you know, I managed to pull in 20, 20 some odd clients there in the first summer. So I was regularly mowing them, uh, before I went to college and then for the next three years, you know, each year it would grow a little bit. And then my dad kinda got on the action the last year and uh, he actually went out and asked permission for me, cause I was the owner of the business at this point. He actually asked me for some money to go and buy somebody else's lawn mower account that had like 33 clients or something like that across town.
Speaker 1 16:39 And I was like, uh, sure. Okay. You know, looking back at that now it's kind of like buying the plugins on flip out, you know, it was like $1,500 for these accounts and we easily made that back in a couple of weeks, a month. I don't know. But, and then we had those things for years after that. So I mean they paid off in spades. Yeah. But having one strong positive experience as an entrepreneur, I think really kind of shapes that. Like it, it hooks you suddenly. It's not like this big risky thing. It's like, Hey, if I line up these certain elements and I put them all together, I could be successful with this. But then, you know, as I graduated from college, my mom is still hitting me with a, you got to get health insurance, you've got to get a job, you gotta be stable, you got to do it, you know? And so when I finally got that first job for a software company, it, you know, the, the whole notion of entrepreneurship just got pushed to the back. I'm like, I'm making a salary now. I don't need to worry about that shit anymore. That was just a way to get here. But you know, it just kind of festered in the background after that and never really went away. Yeah. I think that,
Speaker 2 17:50 I so want to go on the political rant about healthcare and how it is. Oh no, it was, I'll just say this. I'll say this, the healthcare system in the United States is maybe the most destructive thing to like economic growth because everyone wants to work for themselves that not every, a lot of people want to work for themselves and a lot of people can make it work and they can kind of create a economy, right? They can grow the economy, small businesses, all this kind of stuff. But 95% of them are scared shitless of finding health insurance and leaving health insurance and leaving savings and stuff like that. And living in France, it's the opposite where everyone just wants to have a job and they can, you know, live for the weekend but they don't have to worry about either retirement, you know, like 401ks and shit cause it's all provided by the government or health insurance and they are the most risk averse people I've ever met.
Speaker 2 18:50 And it's just bizarre that like it's so backwards. The United States is, you know, Cowboys, right? Like we're, we're just Cowboys gouge, fucking do anything, figure it out. You know, after we jumped out of the airplane. But like the biggest obstacle to doing that for society as a whole is healthcare and it's something that you can figure out as a society to provide to everybody to open up the floodgates of economic growth through small business and entrepreneurship. But they haven't and it's just crazy. I, I don't have an answer. Of course I'm not whatever politician, and I'm not going to go figure this out, but I mean the United States could really be something if they could figure out a way to enable people to go do this stuff without like your mom worrying about like the biggest concern that they have is where am I going to get my healthcare and can I afford to have another kid like that? That's a God given, right? Is to have as many kids as you want, as long as you can put food in their mouth. Not like can I afford the hospital bill if I go have a complicated pregnancy? That's just crazy.
Speaker 1 19:55 Well, you're certainly not the first one I've heard rant about the whole healthcare thing. Holding back entrepreneurship in the United States. I've, I've had private discussions and seen Twitter rants on this directly and I 100% agree. If I was not consulting and was in a position to pay our exorbitantly high health insurance, you know, we're paying $1,500 a month and it went down this year, by the way, it was 1700 so we're 1500 for catastrophic coverage for five people. And the only reason that I can truly afford that is because I have this consulting job that allows me to pay for that. And our medical expenses, which are still mostly not covered, sucks to be us. And you know, when something really bad happens, you're at least covered. And we've had that happen a couple of times like it doesn't, it takes than you think it does to get to that level, you know, of spending your total cap for the family for the year. But we've hit it a couple of times. So I've been glad that we've had it, but man, you know, if I didn't have that ability to maintain that being an entrepreneur would not be something in my wheelhouse right now.
Speaker 2 21:06 I would love to be a part of fixing this and I don't know how to do it, but I mean it's, I mean, we look at, we're now moving back to the United States anytime soon, but we look at it sometimes just like theoretically and say, well fuck, like this is more expensive. This is more expensive. This is a pain and healthcare is way up there on the list of reasons we don't move back to the U S and that's crazy. I mean, we can afford it, whatever, like to go just go pay, but that's, you know, 1500 or $2,000 extra a month that we don't have to pay living here. The university is a whole nother thing. Like it's free basically. And they have some of the best universities in the world here. Anyways, this is not the point of <inaudible>
Speaker 1 21:41 we're talking about, but we're going to rename this episode. Craig loves France. The United States sucks. Yeah.
Speaker 2 21:48 You know, so, so something that I think before I got started on this rant that I was thinking about is, um, like this, like do you like adapt to your situation or do you revolt against it? And I think that, you know, a lot of us are in this, like, you know, we're working for the man corporate mindset, long hours and stress and stuff like that. And we think there has to be a better way. It has to be like a life on the other side of this where I make the rules and I can set my own hours and it's all rainbows and unicorns, which of course it's not. But I think that's the dream that a lot of us have. It's like, I don't want to do this thing that sucks anymore. If I worked for myself, I can make the rules. And for me that, that really was like the draw of like I was traveling a ton and I was not seeing my family at all.
Speaker 2 22:39 And so add on top of that, you know, a side gig where I see them less even. But, um, I do think that's, for me at least, that was like the though like the vision of like what if I did this and I could, you know, quit my job or whatever. Make enough to, to not have to do this all the time is like revolting against the situation you're in. And for a lot of people I think it is like that shitty for whatever reason, corporate job that, that you think entrepreneurship can solve. I dunno.
Speaker 1 23:11 Well I'm going to throw out a different theory and you know, this is confirmation by us talking here, but I do have some informal dataset to sort of back this up a little bit. So one thing that I noticed of all of my friends, and this basically spans my, not just the MicroComp career, but my pre MicroComp times of the consulting plus the, you know, semi corporate startup world, those that were the most entrepreneurial always seem to have a few things in common. One of those was they, they had something that was driving them because they didn't feel like what they had was enough, which I thought was interesting. And I'll get to a Buddhist perspective on that in just a second. But the other thing that I found was a lot, not all, but a lot of them also came from backgrounds where they grew up and they didn't have a lot financially when they were growing up either.
Speaker 1 24:16 So there was definitely sort of a kinship that I felt with some of these guys when I was in these various companies. And then eventually, you know, we go to something else, sometimes they started something else, sometimes they were consulting on their own. But that requires a certain kind of entrepreneurial spirit to do that. Like you gotta be willing to step outside the boundaries of a regular corporate job. So I'll call that entrepreneur light, right? It's not quite the full fledged business, but it's, you're getting a good chunk of the way there. Right. And the, all the people that I saw that I really got to know, well, kind of all had a background similar to mine. They grew up, they didn't have a lot of stuff. They didn't have good financial means. Their family struggled with, you know, basic needs. Or maybe one of their parents was, you know, they got divorced and they had financial hardship or something like that.
Speaker 1 25:11 And it just created a stress or a strain around money. And as a result, those kids, and it wasn't all kids, but it certainly was a significant number of more than half of them, that all ended up kind of pushed in this direction because of that lack, I'll call it. And it's interesting. So when I was being a regular Buddhist practitioner years ago, one of the things that I sat down with my teacher and asked, and I don't think I've ever said this publicly before, was what was, you know, what drives you? What is it that you feel like you need to fill or fix or improve that is constantly kind of a, an itch you can't scratch. And it took a long time and a lot of looking in meditation in discussions to kind of come to this. But it was, there was definitely this, you know, I'll call it a nerd complex.
Speaker 1 26:08 It was a combination of growing up without all of these financial resources and this nerd complex where being a nerd was not the cool thing back in the time. And those things put together, pushed me to say, all right, you know, I'm this nerdy poorer kid and I want to make myself better. So how am I going to do that? Well, I'm going to make a fuck ton of money and I'm going to build a company and I'm basically gonna, you know, flip the middle finger to all of those people that thought I couldn't do these things. So, but getting to those goals very empty, if that's what really drives you, I found, um, and, and you have to live for more than that and you know that this is the transformative part here where, you know, the, the clouds part and the rainbows come and the unicorn start dancing.
Speaker 1 26:58 Uh, that's when I realized that, you know, having a purpose makes more sense. You know, you can't just be, I'm gonna make a fuck ton of money cause I had this goal in my head. Like I wanted a six figure salary by the time I was 30 and like just shy of my 30th birthday. I hit it and suddenly I was like, uh, what the fuck now? So, you know, it wasn't, it didn't, it didn't feel as cool as I thought it was going to feel. And you know, that led me on a soul searching path of, you know, Oh well let's double that. Maybe I can make 200,000 by the time I'm 40 no that didn't, you know, that was an empty goal as well. And as you started pursuing it, you could feel how empty it felt. Cause it, it was the same thing. But you know, once I got married to my current wife and had kids and that changed my perspectives and a lot of this stuff, it gave me a different sense of purpose. And so being an entrepreneur feels very different now that you know, I'm doing it for them, not for myself. So it's, yeah, it's more fulfilling I guess.
Speaker 2 28:03 I think there's this thing of like intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation and uh, I think in the long run you have to have intrinsic motivation because I mean there certainly is nobody telling me to go to work every day right now. Right. But I want to go to work. I like working, I want to be successful. And that's all driven from me. Uh, and, and from like my sense of responsibility to my family and stuff like that and the people like that that I work with on our teams. But it's not, you know, a boss saying you have to do this or your parents saying these are expectations of you and I'm going to be disappointed if you don't do this. But I don't think you have to always have that. I think that it's kind of like fake it until you make it a little bit.
Speaker 2 28:51 Like you can have the extrinsic motivation in like salary that you're talking about or like quitting your job as the motivator to say like, I'm going to do this and have this whatever, like materialistic kind of milestone that's driving you for awhile until like you get comfortable with the motivation internally. Yeah, I think that that that's fair. Like I don't think you always have to have this thing, like you were saying your, your friends or people that you knew that came from kind of lower income families and, and just had this chip on their shoulder of like, I'm just going to stick it to the man. A lot of us don't come from that and have to kind of motivate ourselves somehow to get off our ass and go make something. And, but then like along the way somewhere I think the light switches and you say like, hi, yeah, this is mine. I'm doing this because I want to. This is a thing that I own, you know, and more than one way. And this is, you know, part of my identity and something I identify with and that makes me feel good. And successful and stuff. But, but I don't think it has to start from there.
Speaker 1 29:57 No, I think you should have something that motivates you somehow and then I think it's worthwhile to examine, re-examine your motives on a regular basis. You know, for me, I left my motives unexamined for far too long and you know, when I finally did hit it because I wasn't sitting there asking myself, is this the right thing I should be doing? Is this really helping me? Is this, you know, is this best for anyone else besides just me? And because those things just didn't get asked. When you hit the goal it's like, Oh well this isn't what I thought it was. Yeah. So I think having the extrinsic to start and an intrinsic, as long as you're questioning and understanding what it is you want to get out of it, I think that makes a huge difference.
Speaker 2 30:44 I will say the one other thing about this is, uh, the, the like intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation affects the day to day decisions you make a lot. And I think that the more at peace you are with where you are in your business and what your path looks like, the better day in day out kind of tactical decisions you'll make. And I will say one of the things about like joining tiny seed, and I don't want to say not worrying about money, but not worrying about running out of money for, you know, the last nine months or something with Castillo's has allowed me to look at what we do and how we're doing it differently. Of course I'm like try to be prudent with our money, but like I don't worry about making payroll. And I think if you kind of give yourself that longer term vision, whether you take funding or don't or are, you know, making ends meet or not that I think if you're able to take that longterm view and, and kind of separate the, the immediate results of your actions from where you want to get longterm, you'll be happier and you'll make better decisions.
Speaker 1 31:51 Totally agree. Totally agree. And we'd love to hear what you think about this. Where, where do you think your motivation comes from? Do you want us to talk more about motivations on another episode or do you have a cool story that you want to share with us? Send it in. We'd love to hear it. podcast@roguestartups.com and as always, our one ask is if you think that what you've been hearing is valuable, please share it with somebody you think would really benefit from it. Until next week,
Speaker 0 32:20 thanks for listening to another episode of rogue startups. If you haven't already, head over to iTunes and leave a rating and review for the show for show notes from each episode and a few extra resources to help you along your journey. Head over to rogue startups.com to learn more <inaudible>.
