Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00 Okay. <inaudible> welcome to the rogue startups podcast. We're two start up. Founders are sharing lessons learned and pitfalls to avoid in their online businesses. And now here's Dave and Craig.
Speaker 1 00:23 All right, welcome back to another episode of rogue startups. Uh, this week we're, we're kind of shifting things up a little bit. Uh, Dave is a way, so have on someone from the tiny seed cohort this year. Uh, Brian Marble. Uh, Brian is a friend and nick fellow bootstrap founder, I guess we're not technically bootstrapped anymore, Brian, but, uh, he runs a, he's a multi-time founder and now runs client rock, which is in the legal tech space. We'll get into kind of what that is and, and kind of what he's up to and where he is in his journey and a bit, but wanted to, to talk about kind of what, what he's up to and, and also kinda talk about life inside tiny seed a little bit since we're wrote tiny seed cohort members. I think it'll be interesting to talk about our experiences there as I get a lot of questions from folks about, you know, how's it going? What's it like? Um, do you take baths and all the money that you got? Um, like scrooge McDuck. And the answer is no. But, um, so I think that's what Brian and I will talk about today. So Brian, how's it going? Very good. Thanks for having me, Craig. Yeah, no, my pleasure. Um, so yeah, you know, as I kind of alluded to in the, in the prelude there, uh, yeah, you're, you're the founder of client rock. You want to tell kind of everybody what client rock is all about.
Speaker 2 01:34 Sure. A, so for most bootstrapped folks, uh, who are used to doing automation to set up their systems, uh, what you and I might put together with type form and Calendly and, uh, Zapier and all of these other tools that lead into a CRM. Uh, we do that as an automated platform for attorneys. So a prospective client comes to an attorney, they book a consultation, much like with Calendly. Uh, we send them an intake form, we do reminders about the consultation, and then they can sign fee agreements. Uh, so basically just automating that whole client onboarding process for attorneys.
Speaker 1 02:14 Why attorneys <inaudible>
Speaker 2 02:17 Oh, I get that a lot. Um, my wife has an attorney. Uh, so she started her own law firm years ago. Uh, and at the time I was building a CMS. And so I ended up building a CMS for lawyers called amaze law, which I sold in 2017 and since then I've been focusing on client rock, which was kind of one of the needs that I saw of my amazing law customers having, which was, you know, once we get these leads from our website, what do I do with them? How do I manage them through the process of onboarding? Uh, so that's, that's kind of where client rock took a took on.
Speaker 1 02:51 So, you know, Dave and I talk about, uh, the, the moral where guys a lot, right? So like countertop estimating software and, and I like working with folks outside of the typical, like online business dev tools, marketing tech world that we all live in every day because honestly, like they're there, I know some more real businesses, but, but you guys are certainly serving real businesses is your customer. So I really liked talking to folks that live further on that B2B end of the spectrum. Um, I think that that the challenge for a lot of us is we don't know other industries well enough to feel confident to get into that industry. Like, you know, I couldn't get into legal tech. Um, cause I'm not an attorney. I don't, I'm not married to an attorney, so I just don't have that much like domain expertise. But I think in a lot of ways it's probably a, a real competitive advantage because the, the, the tech and the innovation in these spaces is certainly not as, as rampant and as fast as you know, and podcast hosting or in email marketing or, or whatever. Right. Do you feel that, a little bit,
Speaker 2 04:00 a little bit, but I pushed back on that. Um, I think a lot of us assume that we have to be subject matter experts in order to go into a niche. And I don't think that's necessarily true. Um, one benefit of being kind of on the bleeding edge, whether it's marketing or technology or processes, uh, is that we are typically a decade ahead of all of these smaller niches. So while we might not be subject matter experts in the law, for example, we are subject matter experts, uh, in, you know, marketing automation or um, you know, analytics, all of these things that we do on a daily basis, even if we're not subject matter experts within the bootstrapping space compared to everyone in these smaller niches, we really are. And I don't think we realized that enough. Uh, and so if you can take the expertise that you have in technology and then apply it to a niche that is underserved in that way, uh, I think there's a lot of opportunity there.
Speaker 2 04:55 And I don't think, uh, I, I think folks are a little too hesitant to go into a new niche. I mean, obviously you have to go in and do your research and figure out, um, you know, what problems need solving and how to translate from, you know, the tech circles that we all run in, into, you know, words that, uh, that less technical niche can, can understand. But I think there's a lot of opportunity there because there are so many folks trying to serve these small niches without doing that translation. Um, that I think, you know, for bootstrappers going in and saying, you know, I can, I can make this process work for you, uh, in the words you understand is, is a pretty compelling value proposition.
Speaker 1 05:33 Mm. Hmm. Do you think you would have gone into legal tech if you weren't married to an attorney?
Speaker 2 05:38 Probably not. Um, but that isn't necessarily because I think it's, it's impossible or hard or necessarily harder to do. I think it's just that I wouldn't have recognized that opportunity. Um, I was kind of, I kind of fell into it, which is I, I think in hindsight, good. But I think if, you know, if I had to do it all over again, would I choose legal? I don't know, but I don't, I definitely don't think I would be quite as hesitant to go into a particular vertical.
Speaker 1 06:07 Cool. Cool. Um, and I know where things with client rock are because part of tiny seed and you and I have been talking and Kinda like one-on-one mastermind for a couple of years now. Um, but do you want to give folks an idea of kind of like where you are in the journey, uh, with client rock?
Speaker 2 06:24 Sure. So we're very early stage, so, um, I broke ground on this in 2017 so it's been almost two years now since, uh, since I started on client rock, which is definitely not what I expected going into it. Uh, I, I saw all these tools, I'm like, Oh, you know, type form isn't a very complicated tool. Calendly isn't a very complicated tool. Uh, but I think what I realized after the fact is that I'm actually building five SAS tools than one. Um, and so it's really just about now that we're getting into the point where we're really solving the needs for the attorneys. Um, and so now it's a matter of kind of customer acquisition, all the, all the things that we, uh, we tell people to do while they're building. Um, I'll, I won't be the, I won't say that I did that enough going through that whole process. But you know, as a, as a solo founder, there's only so much time in the day. Um, and sometimes you know, the marketing takes the back seat to the product. You can't market a product you don't have. Um, so it's, it's all, it's kind of a chicken or egg problem.
Speaker 1 07:24 Yeah, it's interesting. I think, um, we definitely see in the tiny seed group, uh, people, I think people in the kind of bootstrapper space are, are very product focus. And I think, I think rightfully so. Like everyone says, Oh, you should start marketing on, on day one and stuff. But, um, I think, I think in a way like you run into a wall with that, right? If you were to say like, I'm going to start publishing content on, you know, client intakes and law firm optimizations and efficiencies and stuff like that, like at a point you would, you would like run out of authority if there's nothing else behind that. I think, um, so, so I think that especially these days, um, the, the product needs to speak for itself and the product should be like your best marketing tool. So, so in a way I think that folks who say you should start marketing on day one, um, who are product people are kind of being too hard on themselves a little bit because I think that putting the time in on a really, really, really fantastic product is a really great marketing channel.
Speaker 1 08:36 And I think like if we look at the market, like zoom is the perfect example of that, right? You hear zoom has like had for a very long time, very, very little marketing, uh, budget, but everything went into the product name. Superhuman is a similar thing now. Like superhuman and zoom are, are like really, really like product first businesses and have been really successful. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about like not marketing before you had a product products. I think that's a, it's tough to do a lot of and be successful like right out of the gate with it.
Speaker 2 09:11 Yeah. And I also think, um, while marketing for the sake of gender, like creating a sustainable marketing channel before you have a product, I do think that's probably too much to ask before you have a product. But in terms of getting out into your niche, for example, and really having a steady stream of customers that can provide feedback, I do think that's really important. And I think one thing we should lose it as part of that conversation is that when you have a, when you're going into a new niche or developing a product, you might have a vision for what this should be like. But all along as you're developing it, you should be kind of checking in with those potential customers saying, is this right? Is this the way you would do it? Do you understand this? Uh, and I think, uh, when we say no, you should be, uh, marketing from day one.
Speaker 2 09:58 I think the marketing at the beginning is while yes, ideally you would have a, a, a marketing channel set up, uh, if you can at least create a steady stream of, you know, folks to provide you feedback, I think that's probably the best, um, the best use of your time in those early days when you're, you're thinking about like, what do I market or how do I market, uh, if you can reach out to folks in, in your niche, whether that's through cold email or cold contacting in other ways. Uh, I think that's probably good enough. Um, again, every, everyone's journey is a little bit different and everybody has, uh, a different path through this. But, uh, that, that's what I would probably recommend.
Speaker 1 10:39 Yeah, I agree. I think especially kind of like you are, if you're getting into a market that you don't have firsthand domain expertise in that having a large group of people to bounce ideas off of and get feedback on is really important because otherwise you start building the wrong thing. Uh, and, and not knowing which direction to go. And I think we, we ran into that at sales camp. Um, even though we, I, you know, I was a user, um, is we just got 50 different opinions on what the tools should do. And, and when you do that, then you have no direction, you know, so like if 50 people are all saying the same thing, that's great. If 50 people are all saying different things, you have some kind of problem, like you're talking to the wrong group of people or they're coming from the wrong place, or your product just sucks and has no opinion, um, to, to what it should be. I don't, I don't know, obviously don't know what the solution is there. And I haven't talked about some of the podcasts I've sent sold sales camp. It's in much better hands now. Um, and I'm focusing out of their stuff. I don't know, maybe that's a good segue into talking about tiny seed. Um, so I don't know, do you take baths in the money that we got from tiny seed like scrooge McDuck?
Speaker 2 11:49 Uh, hardly. I, I think, um, <inaudible> that would be really hard. And I've actually like thought about, you know, what would it take in terms of money to have a pool full of gold like that? I think it's trillions of dollars, but, uh, in any case, the money is, was, uh, definitely helpful in the, in this process. Uh, unlike some of the other founders and tiny seed, I was coming from a position of, uh, not working on my business full time, so I w I was a full time employee elsewhere. Uh, and tiny seat allowed me to, you know, essentially quit and focus on client rock full time. And that's been amazing. So it's not so much, you know, some companies are going to use that money to either hire or, you know, increase, um, you know, paid ad spend. Uh, that's not something that I'm going to do.
Speaker 2 12:39 I'm not at that place where I have that repeatable flywheel just yet. Uh, but it does supplement the income so that I can, uh, focus with more longterm views as to how to acquire customers. So instead of being stressed out about, you know, I, I need to get out of my day job by, you know, three months from now, what do I do? Uh, now I can start thinking, you know, in six and 12 months time horizons. And that's really kind of opened up the, um, the way to approach the product. And I think it's a much more healthy way to approach the product. I think the product is getting better because of it, uh, because the, it isn't built around rash decisions about getting like an individual client that would, um, lewd jump into the product.
Speaker 1 13:20 Hmm. Uh, that's a really interesting thing to talk about. Uh, so the, the time horizon that you try to work on, um, I think we're at kind of a little different stages of, of the business. Um, and I've found the, talking about the timeframe that I tried to work on, um, joining tiny seed has in a way shortened that that time horizon. I look at things like, can we build a feature this month that will get us more customers or allow our customers to stay around longer or something? Like that. Um, and in a way it's heightened that sense of urgency, uh, with me to say like, okay, I, you know, I have someone else's money that I'm not playing with, we're working with now. Um, we need to make some shit happen. Um, I don't know. Do you think it say say client rock was bringing in 10 or 15 grand a month and it was like you and a contractor, do you feel like you wouldn't be making the same decisions? Now if you are on your own, then you are like as a part of tiny seed?
Speaker 2 14:26 Um, I, I mean I'd be in a different position in the business at that point. So, uh, assuming 10 to 15 k in revenue, you have at least some repeatable channel. Uh, and at that point it's the either how do I, how do I double down on whatever's working or how do I find that next channel? Uh, so I do think I'd be deploying the money differently in that case, but I don't think it's based on, um, you know, the, I don't think it's based on my position so much as the business is positioned action. Uh, I think it's coming from the, you know, working full time and, and building a business on the side. Uh, everything is so, um, so, so focused on get to that point where you can work on it full time because then things start to open up. Um, you can spend your free brain cycles on those things as opposed to you, you know, just trying to contact switch between the day job and the non, uh, and the, the side project or side business.
Speaker 2 15:20 So I just think the, the focus is um, change. So I think I would probably still be looking at a six to 12 month time horizon, whereas before I was looking at like one to three months. So, uh, in that regard I think it would be similar. Nice. Nice. How has, how is your, uh, kind of stress and emotional management, I guess, then since like quitting the day job and joining the cohort? Uh, that's an interesting question. Um, I'm happy to share my side of that too if you want to. So you're not yeah. On the REC. No, no, no. I know. Yeah. Um, so there was definitely a ton of anxiety. Uh, and I don't, I think looking back on it, I don't think I realized just how much, um, you know, doing the Split Day, job side business thing had really, um, ramped up my anxiety.
Speaker 2 16:13 Uh, you know, just being stressed all the time that I wasn't getting things done on the business fast enough. And then if I was working on that I wasn't doing as much on like the full time job as I should be. And so it was just like a constant state of, of worry and stress. And, um, and I'd been doing it for so long. I've been doing that for four and a half years, so, uh, it had almost become second nature. I don't even think I realized just how much it was affecting it. And so, uh, you know, coming into tiny seat, I was like, oh great, when I quit my day job, then it's gonna be like the, like the heavens are gonna open up and everything's going to be perfect. Uh, and that's definitely not what I found. Uh, I think, uh, there's a sense there's a bit of burnout that comes with, um, having that much, you know, just constant stress for so long that it, it took almost three months to, to kind of commodity that and not only begin to feel healthier myself, but, um, you know, my brain was starting to, uh, be able to focus on client rock full time and, uh, it wasn't like an instantaneous switch where suddenly I had extra capacity.
Speaker 2 17:19 It would, it took a long time for my brain to get used to having that and to start thinking, um, more calmly about things. And so, uh, I really think now is about the time where I'm starting to hit my stride when it comes to anxiety and stress being lowered. Um, but yeah, it definitely took a little while. Yeah. I, uh, I, I debated like, uh, even applying for tiny seed a lot because of this thing. Uh, you know, it's, yeah, the money's great
Speaker 1 17:50 obviously, but the stress and the, um, responsibility that comes along with it is, is huge. And I think it's something that anyone who's considering doing something like joining tiny seed or NDVC or, uh, or earnest or any of those, or taking real venture money, um, it should be like, the first thing you think about is not like, should I take money, but am I kind of emotionally capable of taking money and not being a mess? Um, and I'm a pretty emotional person like that. And so that was something I was really concerned about and talk with, you know, my wife and my kids and stuff about, it's like, okay, I'm gonna have to work more and I'll be more stressed. And is that cool? Because the upside is then like we could, we could make a really massive business that could be life changing. Um, and that's the, that's the kind of risk trade off that, that we decided to, to go for.
Speaker 1 18:38 And you know, the, the emotional stuff for me has been interesting. Um, I've learned to deal with it a lot more because I guess there's been more of it, you know, I've been more stressed. Um, and like everyone in a tiny seed like group is great, like rob and INR and everyone is really great and they're not putting any stress on us. Um, that, that's not like totally reasonable. So I, I don't want to say that at all, but, but I put myself, I put a lot of stress on myself. Um, and I think that's where a lot of it is coming from. It's like I want to perform and show that like, you know, them and trusting me with, you know, this opportunity is, was worth it and a good decision for them. Um, yeah. I, I've, I've started doing things like exercising more, putting more priority on sleeping, um, you know, seven plus hours a night, um, trying to take dedicated time where I'm not working, not ha I don't have the phone.
Speaker 1 19:37 I don't have my computer, I'm not thinking about work getting outside, uh, things like that. And that's been really helpful. That's probably been the most helpful thing is like having really dedicated working and not working time. Um, because otherwise, yeah, there's been quite a bit more stress. Again, I put it on myself, but um, those are things that have really helped me to deal with it, which has been nice to like realize and be able to address that stuff. Uh, cause you know, the thing, one of the things I'm kind of coming to realize is like this is a really long term journey, right? Like tiny seed is only for a year, but I am going to be an entrepreneur forever. And so if I don't learn to deal with my stress and learning to live with this kind of lifestyle choice I've made of being an entrepreneur and hopefully being like a high growth entrepreneur in tech, that I have to learn to be cool with it and make it fit with my life hour or the whole thing will be just a disaster. So,
Speaker 2 20:32 yeah, I definitely agree. I think, um, so coming from again that like chronic stress situation where I was working essentially two jobs constantly. Um, the anxiety was to the, and the, um, the general levels were so high that, you know, it, I, it wasn't enough for me to deal with on my own. Um, so I, I would recommend to anyone that's kind of going through that, you know, seek out a therapist that um, can talk you through these things. He gave you some strategies for, um, identifying the, the stress that you're feeling and how to, um, how to combat it. Uh, that's been super helpful and while I was probably overloaded previously, all those things that I've learned now that I'm focusing full time have really been helpful in, in making that transition. Um, it's, it, it's not something I, I, I would highly recommend not suffering alone cause I think that that can be typical of bootstrappers, particularly solo founders, is that we just kind of, we, we try to shoulder at all. Um, and I think, you know, bring in a professional to help you bring in, um, you know, family, friends, whatever you can do to make sure that you're not going through this alone, uh, because it's hard enough as it is if you don't, uh, if you can't control the stress and the anxiety.
Speaker 1 21:50 Hmm. Yeah. It's kind of a badge of honor a lot of us wear. Um, and it's silly, right? Like you, you don't have to do this alone. You will be much better off in every way. You'll be more successful. You'll be less stressed, you'll be more healthy. Um, if you get help and frame this all the right way. Right,
Speaker 2 22:07 right, exactly. Like there is no, there's no, um, there's no trophy you're going to get because you did it alone and didn't get any help from anybody. Uh, it's, it, you're, at least for me, I was choosing to do it because I wanted more freedom in my life, more the freedom to choose what I wanted to work on, where I wanted to work on it. Uh, the ability to like go to my son's school and have lunch with the kids and stuff. Um, and none of that matters if you're just a raging stress ball all the time. So, um, you know, take the time to take care of yourself. Uh, especially as you get older, I'm getting older. Um, you know, it's not quite as easy to, you know, survive on six hours of sleep, wake up and do it again the next day. So,
Speaker 1 22:48 yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, the, the biggest unexpected advantage and like upside for me of, of joining tiny seed has been the community and the community really for, for everyone else is, um, is the other founders like you, um, and, and Robin INR and Tracy, it's the mentors that we have access to, which are like all of the names that you've heard about in SAS and tech and marketing. Um, and that is like by far the best part for me is like having this community where everybody is driving towards the same goal for all of us. Um, you know, we, we took the money to like you, like you were talking about earlier to deploy towards marketing cause we are like, we do have product market fit and now we're in like growth stage. Um, so we joined for different reasons than some other companies, but I mean almost like the community is worth joining in and of itself because it is just so great on a, do you find the same thing?
Speaker 2 23:49 Yeah, I mean, going into tiny seed, I kind of looked at the mentorship as kind of icing on the cake. Uh, you know, being so focused on being able to get full time, like that was my main motivation for going with tiny seed. Um, but really it has been kind of eyeopening to see how willing folks are to jump in and help and answer questions. And, um, you know, we're not going out there asking for like a week long engagements with any of these folks. But when you have a basic question about, you know, what should the copy on this site be or, you know, how do I, um, how do I think about ads or, or, or really any of those questions where, you know, someone with experience could set you on the right path and, you know, 15 to 20 minutes as opposed to, you know, you spending hours searching online and not being sure you have the answers. Uh, that's been really, really helpful. And, uh, you know, the, the slate of mentors has been great.
Speaker 1 24:41 What's the, what's the biggest surprise for you so far?
Speaker 2 24:44 I don't know. Um, I mean, having been in this community for a while, like I've, I've known Robin INR for years now. Um, so like their dedication to the process was always very, um,
Speaker 3 25:01 yeah,
Speaker 2 25:02 I, I kind of expected that I expected a, I a high level of competency with all of this. So, uh, I guess no surprise that it's going off really well. Um, I think the, the biggest surprise for me has been around like how I have been transitioning and how, um, you know, just that full time, that shift from full time or really the two jobs to being able to focus entirely on my own product. And that's really been, uh, the biggest surprise for me is one, how long that took to shift and, um, how, how much impact that shift has on the way I think about the business, the way I prioritize things. Um, that's been, that's been probably my biggest surprise.
Speaker 1 25:45 Hmm. For like folks who are out there kind of suffering through that, like a working a day job, coming home nights and weekends working on their app. Um, do you feel like you've gotten, you, you at this point would make a different decision on when to pull the trigger to go full time? Like having seen the other side now, uh, do you think your perspective is different on when that's an acceptable risk to take if you're like totally bootstrapped?
Speaker 2 26:16 I don't, I don't think it's changed much in the sense that, um, I wouldn't make it so I have two kids and a family obviously, um, that I don't, uh, that I have two that I have responsibility for. And so it's not something where I could have jumped earlier and you know, gone into the red for. And so I think everyone has to make that decision on their own. I think it's, if you can swing it, it, it can definitely help. But also that's not everybody's situation. And I think that's where folks like a tiny seed earnest in DVC, uh, they're all options for folks that, you know, you can't afford to take no paycheck essentially for a year on end while you build out the application. Um, that's definitely a viable model I think for folks. And, uh, I, I wouldn't have changed when I, when I jumped because I'm not in a position where I would, um, necessarily jump unless I had a trajectory and, um, and, and was close to covering that, you know, those basic expenses.
Speaker 2 27:24 Anyways. Uh, so in that way it doesn't change anything. Um, but I would say if you're in it, just keep going. Um, it's not, it's definitely not easy. Uh, if I did it for four years and, you know, I would say probably at that point it's probably time to think about what, what's next. But, you know, I wouldn't begrudge anybody for going out and trying to do, you know, the full time job while also building your thing on the side. And, you know, I did it as a remote employee, so I found that to be really helpful because then I don't have to worry about, you know, a commute and then working late into the evening, uh, you can kind of work on both things at once. Um, so that's been, that's the approach I'd usually recommend.
Speaker 1 28:05 So, so now that you've, uh, like dipped your toe in the dark side of the world by, by taking outside investment, um, how, how do you feel about at the end of, you know, the tiny seed, uh, cohort year? Next summer I'm looking at taking venture capital money. Assuming you have product market fit.
Speaker 2 28:24 I, I'll, I'll say that I don't have any plans to do that now. Um, I've always found kind of the, um, the dogma around whether you take money or not as kind of an uninteresting discussion just because, uh, you know, money is a tool just like any other, um, if you can get it on decent terms and you can deploy it in a way that will help your business, then great. It's, uh, it's, as long as you're going into it with, um, the right mindset and you know what you're giving up to get that money as well. Uh, I think, I think it's totally fine if that's the way you want to grow and you want to jump into the VC world and you are comfortable being willing to jump into a situation where you're pretty much going to have to, you know, 10 x the business in the next 18 months.
Speaker 2 29:12 Like, that's, that's fine. Go for it. Um, that's it. I don't think, I don't feel any pressure to do that. Um, I think there, well, there might be an opportunity in the legal space. I don't see it as being necessary to kind of own the market that I'm in. Um, and, and so I, I don't know. I, I don't think there's any one right or wrong way to do it as long as you're aware of what, what's going on, on both sides of the equation, but what it means for the trajectory, like the expectations and render business. Uh, if I didn't come into tiny seed knowing that, you know, Robyn INR weren't going to turn around and say, okay, you need to, you need to get this to the point where you're doing a seed round or a series a at the end of this.
Speaker 2 29:56 Um, I, I, I probably wouldn't have taken it, but I also, I, I know that that's not where it's headed. That said, they've also, um, you know, they've all given, they've given us targets that they'd like to see us hit. Uh, not in a hit this or you're out in a way. But in a, we want you to think bigger. We have, um, you know, we, we wouldn't have invested if we didn't think you could get to this amount. Um, so just as you're considering, you know, what paths you want to take, look at this as your target and not, you know, just getting, you know, you know, your f 5% month over month growth. If there's something you can do to make that bigger and kind of open your mind to you know, larger, um, better outcomes for yourself, then that's great. And I think that's been, that's been helpful too. I'm coming from like the day job. I'm so focused on getting to that, you know, all right. Um, default alive point that it's hard to think about. Okay. Beyond default alive, what, what's, what's that next step and, and how quickly can you get there. Uh, and I think they have done a good job of helping us refocus and making sure that, you know, we're keeping in mind like, what, what's next after this?
Speaker 1 31:03 Hmm. Uh, there was some nervous, uh, feet shuffling at the meeting when they, uh, when they laid out those, those expectations that were the, I should say goals. Um, because I think you're absolutely right. They, they did it in a very, um, positive, constructive way to say, yeah, it's not this, do this or get out kind of thing, but we think you all can do this. Um, and in a way to, to shift our mindsets of, you know, not just to grow 5%, but to grow to this amount and to do that, you probably need to think about your plans for the next 10 or 12 months differently than, than you might have. I think it was a really cool way to, to frame like their, their expectations, but in a way that was super helpful. You know, like their expectations were this and they wanted us to know that so that we can go work on our business with, with an aim towards that goal.
Speaker 1 32:05 So I found that really, really helpful. Um, they were pretty much in line with what my personal goals are. Um, which was nice, but it, but I think there's some people, um, it was like, Holy Shit. Like I don't know if we can do that. But then as we started talking about it, they said, oh yeah, we can do it. If we do this and that and then take this approach and you know, aim towards this monthly growth rate, we can do this and it's not that daunting. Um, so I think in sometimes it takes some kind of external stimulus like that to say, yeah, you can totally do this and you can do it by a, B, c and d. Um, because I think we get, I don't think any of us are complacent, but sometimes we get kind of stuck in like, uh, a realm of what we think is possible. Um, and for someone to challenge that a little bit in a, in a like constructive nonthreatening way is like super helpful. I, I thought that was one of the best parts of our, of our first retreat.
Speaker 2 32:59 Yeah. I think especially being early stage, you know, we talk about the long slow Sass ramp of death, like we're in that ramp and so our expectations aren't necessarily, um, our, our, to kind of climb that ramp and not necessarily change the angle of the ramp. And I think that's kind of what they were, uh, kind of hinting at is that just because, uh, growth has been a, a certain, at a certain rate so far doesn't mean that it can't change, that you don't have the re sources to change it. So, um, don't assume what has happened for the last, you know, 12 or 24 months for your business is going to be the same as it is for the next 12 to 24 months. Um, think about what you would do if you had to, you know, hit that new milestone that may have been way beyond what you thought, um, was possible. Cause you're basing your kind of pattern matching on, you know, the last 12 months, which, you know, as an early stage company are never going to be as, um, you know, as instructive. Uh, and I think we have that bias towards matching what we've done before and I think they were able to come in and say, okay, what you have done before is great. We think you can do better. Uh, and we'll, we'll help you get there.
Speaker 1 34:13 One of the, one of the things that I find most interesting about being in the cohort is we have, there's nine different companies and they are all very, very, very different and all of the people are very, very different. I find who they are, their backgrounds and their expertise and focus, um, and kind of skillsets. And I am, I am like on the couch with a popcorn. We're just waiting to see what happens to all nine of us in the next, you know, what, nine months or whatever before the, the cohort time is up. And I'm sure we'll all stay in touch after, you know, this kind of official first year is up. But I think it's super interesting to have such a focused kind of closed group of companies that you know so much about and say like, okay, Yep, I can see them going there.
Speaker 1 34:58 And when we talked about this a fair bit when we all got together last month was, you know, yup. I think you can go there and do this and you should probably focus on, you know, pivoting to this area or yeah, you should absolutely double down on that. Um, and then like, what that, what that does for the business and say, and starting to get some of that like, wow, this is really working. Um, and you know, we're going by this channel and stuff like that is super cool to see. And like the longterm of that I think is like, you know, these people sell or the merge with another company or they go raise an institutional round, um, you know, as the months and years past. I think that'll be super cool.
Speaker 2 35:35 We have a very small entrepreneurial community here in New Hampshire. Um, and so oftentimes I find when I'm talking to folks that are starting up a business and they're, you know, they're new to it. They don't know what they don't know. And not that I know, uh, a ton more than them, but I'm a little further down the road than some folks. Uh, and I find, you know, listening to them pitch businesses and oftentimes what comes to my head is like, okay, these are the things you're gonna have to worry about and the problems you're going to have to solve if this is going to be successful. And so it, it tends to be a relatively, um, not negative, but like, like here, here are some things to put on your plate to worry about to get to the next step. Whereas I found with this group, it was just like every single time someone open their mouth and like, oh, that's a huge opportunity. Oh, that's a huge opportunity too. And just like looking forward to seeing how, how folks can, you know, grow their businesses and, you know, get to that, you know, that next milestone that everyone's talking about.
Speaker 1 36:32 It was really interesting that it may be the first time I've been in a room where everybody knew what they were talking about too. Right? Like, I think you go to a lot of these conferences and there's people that are, you know, UX consultants that want to start a product and don't really know what stripe is or whatever. And that's totally cool because like, we all started somewhere, but I'm like, we're all relatively at the same place, which I think is really powerful. So I, I, I really enjoyed the cohesiveness and the, the fact that we're all about the same stage. Um, and I think as they can, they can do more of that. I think that'll be an even better experience.
Speaker 2 37:11 Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, the, the reason I love going to microcomp every year is just, you don't have to explain to folks, you know, what SAS means. Uh, and you can just jump into a conversation and it's like that times a hundred, uh, with this group, we can just, the, the level of knowledge is just so deep that you can just jump right into fairly technical discussions about, you know, um, how to run a SAS product, uh, without having to have all that preamble of, you know, okay, what are you doing? And what's your model? And, uh, I, I, it's a, we're able to have really high bandwidth conversations about, um, you know, some of the deeper problems that we're having, uh, that go beyond just, you know, oh, how do I find more customers? It's like, how do I find more customers within this niche at this stage in the buying journey? Uh, and it's, it's just a much better, um, conversation then. And I get around here for certain,
Speaker 1 38:04 yeah, no, I can, I can relate. I mean, I don't know anyone here in Annecy that, that does what, what I do have, you know, whatever dozens of friends here in Europe. Um, and I guess that's a good kind of segue into, uh, we will be getting together as soon you and I and the rest of the group we'll be getting together. Uh, and Dubrovnik, Croatia, just head of Microsoft for Europe, which was super awesome. And looking forward to getting together again. Um, and not having to go all the way across the ocean and everyone getting to suffer the red eye flight to come over. Um, but that's in like six weeks or seven weeks. So I'm super excited about that.
Speaker 2 38:39 Yeah, that's, I'm really excited. I've been wanting to go to microcopy Yara for years. Uh, I Miss Lisbon. I missed, uh, I missed, uh, Barcelona and now I'm gonna get to go to Croatia so that, that should be a lot of fun. Where you a game of Thrones fan? I am a big game of Thrones fan. Yes. So, uh, okay. I'll be dragging my wife along to some of those tours for sure.
Speaker 1 39:01 Yeah. I can't wait. I can't wait. I'm geeking out on it already. Um, I have like, they have, they sell these shirts here, like, you know, which house are you in? So I have to, I'll have to like get my shirt and everything before we go.
Speaker 2 39:11 Oh, nice. Which House would you choose? Uh, I would probably be a stark. Yeah, I think that's probably the, the general consensus there. The Griffin <inaudible> right. Like they're what everybody wants to be. Yeah, exactly. You just, yeah. You like the free folk.
Speaker 1 39:31 Cool man. Um, let's see. As for folks who want to, to kind of check out more and stay in touch with you, what's the best place to do that?
Speaker 2 39:38 Uh, definitely Twitter. Um, lost model's on Twitter and uh, if you want to check out the site, it's client rock.com and yeah, it's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 39:48 Awesome man. Thanks Sam. We'll have links to Brian's Twitter and the end to client rock in the show notes for this episode. Do you have any questions for, for Brian or for Dave and I shoot us a message podcast@roguestartups.com and as always, if you're enjoying the show, we would appreciate you sharing it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. Until next week,
Speaker 0 40:08 thanks for listening to another episode of rogue startups. If you haven't already, head over to iTunes and leave a rating and review for the show for show notes from each episode and a few extra resources to help you along your journey. Head over to rogue startups.com to learn more <inaudible>.
